Friday, November 16th Croatian Generals will receive the verdict of the Appeal at ICTY. This will come only two days before the 21st Anniversary of Battle of Vukovar. When Vukovar fell on 18 November 1991, hundreds of soldiers and civilians were massacred by Serb forces and at least 31,000 civilians were deported/ethnically cleansed from the town and its surroundings.
Vukovar is the symbol of Croatian widespread and profound suffering and Operation Storm (in relation to which which the Generals were charged by ICTY) is the symbol of freedom from that suffering.
No matter what the ICTY Appeal Chamber delivers for Generals Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markac on Friday 16 November 2012, Croatian people will continue celebrating freedom from Communist Yugoslavia, freedom from years of Serb brutality, violence and aggression forced upon Croatian soil between 1991 and August 1995.
I wait for Friday – in reverence. Ina Vukic, Prof. (Zgb); B.A., M.A.Ps.(Syd)
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Croatia must not become a member of the EU.Wantin to become amemmber has cost us too much.Croatian politicians sold every bit of pride,interest and history to become a member of an organizationthat didnt want Coratia to exist in the first place.
What makes you think we want Croatia now? Why would we want a country that “reveres” war criminals? Remember:
“The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.” (art. 2 TEU)
These posts do not show a great deal of respect for the rule of law, human rights or justice. If this is representative for Croatian society as a whole, why would we be interested in letting Croatia join our Union? (The Union that we created in order to make sure that such atrocities would not be committed again in the future by anyone, including by ourselves.)
Oh, Martinned it is actually YOU who doesn’t respect the rule of law. The appeal in Hague is not over yet and you have decided your judgment. We at least think people have a right to ponder and discuss prior to final verdict, you don’t you don’t respect the due process that includes an appeal. The EU is founded on those great values you mention but it does not practice them, sorry to say.
Croatians would love you as far as you opinion about entry into EU as only a dismal 29% in effect voted yes and the current gov had to change the relevant section of Constitution on referendum in order to secure Yes vote. That tells me that EU wanted Croatia now and not the other way around.
You do not deserve to be a part of EU – you have the audacity to talk about human rights etc and yet you vilify the whole of Croatia because some individuals may have or have committed war crimes! Do you hate Britain or US or Netherlands or Italy or Germany whose soldiers may have or have committed war crimes in Afghanistan or Iraq?
Martinned you are delusional. The EU abandoned the principles you cite when in an EC observed and certified free election Croatia voted peacefully for independence. The EU abandoned it’s dignity when Bosnia did the same thing…and the Serbs took full advantage of this…bringing terror and horror on the Balkans…just to make a point a peace demonstration in Sarajevo was attacked by Serb snipers killing two female peace marchers. But Martinned you continue to support the Serbs and the politicized ICTY. You are truly a product of a united europe – you stand for nothing and fall for everything.
Where was EU in 1991 – 1995 to help Croatia?Oh,I know making deals with Milosevic,creating an arms embargo that preented us from defnding ourself which led to Srebrenica Genocide.Almost noone from Serbia has been tried.Proceses last for 10 years without a judgment.EU pretends like the first 4 years of war never happened and are only out to get Croatia for the last Operation that brought the war to its end and freed the people of Bihac that were awaiting the same faith as Srebrenica.EU is a joke!Glad i voted against Croatias entry so my concience is clear.EU wants to equalize the quilt of the worring sides trough courts so it can clean its bloody hands for giving Milosevic the green light to kill all non-Serbs.EU is the sole reason why the war lasted that long.
Who is “we” Martinned? Certainly not those in Brussels – go back and read their accolades and welcomes from beginning of 2012 and end of 2011. Certainly, EU is filled with different people, including those like you. Oh we respect the law on this blog, but we also respect human rights – which guarantee freedom of expression and self-determination. The problem with you is that you do not respect the right to an opinion – which is one of the basic human rights. And you confuse opinion with law, on purpose I believe. That’s very akin to what the Dutch did as members of UN forces who watched Serb ethnic cleansing and genocide at Srebrenica without lifting a finger – but perhaps you come from that stock? So if the union “you” created was created in order to make sure such atrocities would not be committed again – why did the EU/EC + EU members of UN forces allow the atrocities then? You tell me – and don’t tell me that UN Peacekeepers didn’t have a mandate to intervene because that’s BS – they didn’t intervene because of politics and because Croatian and Muslim lives weren’t important to them between 1991 & 1995. So “yourselves” (referring to your phrase) did commit atrocities you didn’t want to ever see because you omitted to do anything to stop the horror unfilding before your eyes and you chose to look the other way for political gains. That is my opinion, and that opinion I believe is the absolute truth, only “you” won’t end up in the Hague because your gift of the gab is louder.
Martinned, you talk about the “values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality” and so on…
What dignity? The one the victims of human traffic have? Kids, women and men forced to be prostitutes, to work, to “donate” organs. Right, dignity.
What freedom? The one people in Barcelona are living on these moments? Especially when they get hit and gassed by their own police. Right, freedom.
What democracy? The one people from Ukraine had in their last election? Which is categorized as “The dirtiest in the history of Ukraine”, if you didn’t know. Right, Democracy.
What equality? The one “church registration law” provides? (http://www.bosnewslife.com/24111-eu-no-longer-safe-haven-for-christians-200-million-persecuted). Right, equality
You also talk about
Non-discrimination; like the xenophobic behavior of hungarians against Roma people (Gypsies) when they burned down their houses on Devecser, Hungary. Right, non-discrimination.
and
Tolerance; like when the French government passed the law that no Muslim woman could cover her face with the Hijab. Right, Tolerance.
So yeah, you are totally right. The Union is a wonderful place to live and let live.
Martinned, you talk about the “values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality” and so on…
What dignity? The one the victims of human traffic have? Kids, women and men forced to be prostitutes, to work, to “donate” organs. Right, dignity.
What freedom? The one people in Barcelona are living on these moments? Especially when they get hit and gassed by their own police. Right, freedom.
What democracy? The one people from Ukraine had in their last election? Which is categorized as “The dirtiest in the history of Ukraine”, if you didn’t know. Right, Democracy.
What equality? The one “church registration law” provides? (http://www.bosnewslife.com/24111-eu-no-longer-safe-haven-for-christians-200-million-persecuted). Right, equality
You also talk about
Non-discrimination; like the xenophobic behavior of hungarians against Roma people (Gypsies) when they burned down their houses on Devecser, Hungary. Right, non-discrimination.
and
Tolerance; like when the French government passed the law that no Muslim woman could cover her face with the Hijab. Right, Tolerance.
So yeah, you are totally right. The Union is a wonderful place to live and let live.
To clarify:
– Again I read your comment as advocating support for this man regardless of whether his conviction is upheld on appeal.
– You will note that I wrote “if this is representative for Croatian society as a whole”, “if”. I didn’t assume anything about Croatia.
– My potential (see previous point) problem with Croatia isn’t that Ante Gotovina allegedly committed war crimes. That’s a problem I have with him. I would have a problem with Croatia as a whole if the people of Croatia insisted on supporting a man convicted of war crimes even on appeal.
Well Martinned you seem to know everything so you should know, without the need to ask the question, that a personal blog does not represent a country. However, much of the country’s individuals may choose to agree with personal blogger and that is their right. As far as Gotovina and Markac are concerned and the appeal results, I like to wait and see how people will behave or feel. Go tell the British that they should not have celebrated Churchill who was Stalin’s best pal, who murdered over 30 Million people. Please, ICTY Trial Chamber had trumped up charges and came up with wild theories, politically coloured court processes, that this gives the people the absolute right to feel any which way they wish.
Never forget!
The Russians should stop celebrating their victory in WW2 because some crimes happened against the German civilians as a result of retaliation because of millions of Russians that were killed by the NaZi hand.Thats by EU standards off course.F EU.Croatia do not enter an organisation that has treated you like s**t from the moment you applied for the mempership!!!Stop with blackmails by other countries like Slovenia and Italy.Tell the EU to F off!!!We didnt need them in 1991 when they were planning how to kill us quicker,so why do we need them now?
To think that Stalin’s judges sat as judges in Nuremberg Nazi trials for extermination of Jews at the same time that Stalin’s hordes were slaughtering millions of innocent Russians makes anyone sick. But the European Allies allowed this complete injustice for humanity. It gets frustrating listening to pontifications of those who have a lot to answer for from their past – Belgium for example celebrates its King Leopold II who was a genocidal maniac and there are many such examples in the history of those who try and show themselves as righteous and without sin. So according to those Croatians are not allowed to love their Generals who killed not a single person, who ordered the killing of not a single person but Belgians can love their genocidal old King… Just saying …
Europe doesnt celebrate anything any more exept the gay parades.Croatia must undo the abolition off all Serbs that took part in the war against us.Tudjman made a great mistake by giving them pardon without a trial.Second Croatia must stop all communication with the ICTY untill they try Mladic also for his massacres in Croatia where Gotovina fought him personally.Croatia must insist on bringing the whole JNA leadership to court.Noone is sentenced or even accused for destruction of 1/2 of Croatia,not even for Vukovar which was whiped of the face of the earth.Where is justice in that?Gotovina got 24 years for being present at a meeting where som contested stuffed was discused.He never ordered any killings of anything illegal.On the other hand Serbia’s Mrksic and Sljivicanin responsible for numerous massacres of non Serbs in a course of 4 years Croatia got 20 and 5 years.Seselj’s (Serbian Hitler) trial is in his 10th year now withouth any kind of verdict.What court in the world allows a trial to last 10 F years?They didnt even manage to sentence Milosevic who was the mastermind of the war.Croats must radicalize and become even worse destabiliIng factor than Serbia because as you see,EU only listens to troublemakers and in not interested in justice.ICJ aquitted Serbia from Srebrenica Genocide which they continue to deny even today.Carla Del Ponte helped Serbia hide cruicak evidnce from the ICJ court,she also deztroyed evidence of the Srebrenica victims without asking anyone.
ICTY is a failure of justice.I’m sure Bosnian Muslims and Albanians feel the same way we do.But Croats will have their justice one way or the other.If Croatia enters the stinking doublecrossing communist EU,Croats should do everything in their power to destroy EU.We managed to destroy even greater empires and survive,well do it again.Long live Croatian people and our homeland.
(quote) These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.
Martinned , It is obvious that you are not aware that the Croatian people had all of these values before the war and still do. Compared to a lot of the EU states of which many do not practice this policy themselves. The EU States are preachers not practitioners. Every Croat knows that they are traitors to our people and will do everything they can to suck the blood out of us for their own gain..Croatia will be a nationalist , Independent and proud country that can and will show the world the way of the future. Our days of being a puppet for the EU is coming to an end soon enough.
Za Dom Spremni!
The Croatian people have been fooled by the EU propaganda for so long and have been betrayed by their own government.No more!9 out of 10 Croats were always pro EU.Now 9 of of 10 will be against it.No more blackmailing by other countries to do things that are against our interests.Croatian politicians must really s**t their pants right now and they should.The people are pis*ed!
Why our governments want to join EU so badly is beyond me.What has the applying for the EU membership bring us?Nothing!Do we live better then when we applied?No,we live worse.What have we done in our own interest for the last 8 years?Nothing!Weve been blackmailed and humiliated by our tiny and big neighbours to make moves we didt want to.Trough Bruxelles they can put pressure on Croatia to do things Croats dont want to do.Like pressure us not to protect our seas and fish.Eu is falling appart from it s own crisis and Croatian politicians are running towards it like mad.Its like renting a suite in the Titanic after she hits the iceberg?!?!?!Ordenery people havent felt a bit better in the last 8 years so cut the EU rope allready.Its tied around our neck.