Joseph Goebbels, the Reich Minister of Propaganda of Nazi Germany (1933 – 1945) fierily worked under the motto: “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it”.
Goebbels wasn’t the first politician in history to rely on the power of spoken words repetition in shaping attitudes and beliefs. Vladimir Lenin (communist revolutionary and Soviet Union Premier from 1922 till he died in 1924) used the technique of achieving belief in lies or half-truths as absolute truths also. His motto was: “A lie told often enough becomes truth“.
The first written trace of this abominable but powerful trend can perhaps be pinned down to the American philosopher and a father of modern Psychology William James who wrote in his work “The Will to Believe”, published by New World in 1896 these words: “There’s nothing so absurd that if you repeat it often enough, people will believe it.”
Having in mind the ICTY (Hague) judgment on 29 May 2013 against the 6 Croats from Herceg-Bosna,
which also names the late Croatian president Franjo Tudjman and his close officials (all of whom had passed away before the ICTY indictments in the case) it is absolutely essential to consider the evolution of the now seemingly accepted version (however untrue) of the story (initially spun by Stjepan Mesic, the former president of Croatia) that Croatia was an aggressor against Bosnia and Herzegovina because it’s leaders planned and executed a joint criminal enterprise in Herceg-Bosna to get rid of the Muslims there and secure the territory for Croats.
The regretful reality is that the ICTY Trial Chamber has accepted as truth the contents of the testimony that the former president of Croatia Stjepan Mesic first gave as witness for the prosecution in ICTY (in Closed/confidential session at Mesic’s/ prosecutor’s insistence!), in the case against Tihomir Blaskic from Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is of note that Mesic’s testimony was that of personal opinion, views and hearsay, which pointed the finger at Franjo Tudjman as having planned and executed a joint criminal enterprise in Herceg-Bosna with the aim to cleanse that area of Bosnian Muslims and have it all Croatian.
Stjepan Mesic spoke in his testimony of March 1991 meetings in Karadjordjevo between Franjo Tudjman and Serbia’s Slobodan Milosevic and although he, himself, was not present at these meetings (which, by the way, would be nothing unusual for any country in the world when one [Croatia] was seceding from the other [communist Yugoslavia], and Serbia was fiercely against this), he insisted that Tudjman and Milosevic had at these meetings agreed to divide Bosnia and Herzegovina between Croatia and Serbia and agreed to start the war!
Of course, since Mesic’s testimony was secret/closed/confidential it was impossible to react to it or refute it publicly at the time or any time before Tudjman’s death in 1999. Mesic used to voice the same allegations about Tudjman-Milosevic meetings publicly before and after his appearance in the Hague – all from the time when he set his eyes on Tudjman’s job, around 1992/93, and commenced a horrid campaign of vilification against Tudjman, conducting it ever since ever since. While Tudjman’s public reaction to Mesic’s ICTY testimony would have been called for, reacting to Mesic’s verbal vomit in the media prior to that time would have meant dignifying it with a reply. Gradually, though, the world media happily picked up on Mesic’s scandalous stories and opinions – it never stopped to ask the question: where is the proof other than that he said/she said, where are the minutes or notes from 1991 meetings between Tudjman and Milosevic? Certainly, there were ample statements and opinions by numerous Croatian identities refuting what Mesic and his followers were saying, but much of the world’s media decided it would run with the Mesic version – his was more scandalous and attention grabbing in the scheme of things that swelled the tides against Tudjman whom they considered a nationalist and an autocrat(!).
Needless to say the ICTY prosecution must have loved Mesic; he seemingly provided it with a “believable” framework around which it could build the theory of joint criminal enterprise and after all, Mesic was the second person in Croatia at the relevant times – so he must be credible!? (Mesic served as Prime Minister, as president of the Croatian Democratic Union/HDZ Executive Council, then Speaker of Croatian Parliament until booted out in 1994, when reportedly caught/proven a liar by many but also Tudjman.)
There is no doubt that horrible crimes were committed against Muslims (and Croats, and Serbs, I might add) during the time and across the territory of Herceg-Bosna covered by this ICTY indictment and eventual conviction on 29 May 2013. However, to reduce the perpetration of these horrid crimes to a joint criminal enterprise, to some collective guilt based on political motives as fed to the court through wild verbal testimony, and with not a shred of evidence that these 6 Croats from Herceg Bosna had committed a single one of these horrible crimes contained in the indictment, is absolutely distressing.
Setting aside the presiding Judge Antonetti’s dissenting opinion, which clearly says that joint criminal enterprise by Croatia against Muslims of Herceg-Bosna did not exist, one needs to wonder what powers are afoot in the ICTY to stamp a lie – or at least a most unsafe verbal testimony – into a truth? A striking resemblance to how Goebbels would have gone about getting lies to be adopted as truths. I shudder to think that just because Stjepan Mesic had high positions in Croatia, including being the President after Tudjman’s death, the ICTY Trial Chamber took his veracity and honesty of his words as unquestionable! It certainly appears to have done that.
So the accused and all of the convicted did not actually commit war crimes – murder, rape, wanton destruction … – but as members of the so-called joint criminal enterprise (constituted of these war crimes), according to the ICTY Trial Chamber’s judgment “ … secured personnel and coordinated the operations on the ground to carry out the crimes,” judges concluded!
Furthermore, it is absolutely scandalous that the ICTY Trial Chamber concluded that since the accused did not commit the crimes that were otherwise proven to have been committed (by someone!) it’s logical to pin these crimes against the accused and the Croatian leaders by way of participating in the joint criminal enterprise. From the Summary of Judgment: “The Accused are charged under all the forms of liability set out in Article 7 (1) of the Statute (including commission through participation in a joint criminal enterprise) and command responsibility under Article 7 (3) of the Statute. Considering the extent of the crimes charged against the six Accused and found proven by the Chamber, the Chamber finds, by a majority with the Presiding Judge dissenting, that analysing their responsibility by virtue of their participation in a joint criminal enterprise is the obvious legal approach. Consequently, the other modes of participation alleged in the Indictment have only been considered for those crimes that do not come under the joint criminal enterprise”.
“Obvious legal approach”! Can you believe this political prop and an attempt to justify the apparent painfully pathetic and unjust ways the ICTY prosecution and Trial Chamber have conducted this case!?
Obvious for whom!? It certainly isn’t obvious to me – and I bet it isn’t obvious to everyone who pursues safe verdicts in criminal justice.
Whichever way one tosses and turns the evidence from the fighting in Bosnia and Herzegovina one WILL NOT find any significant cooperation between Serb and Croatian forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina that would even provide an inkling of support for Mesic’s claims that there was the intention/agreement to divide Bosnia and Herzegovina between them! Muslims, though, seemed to have perceived themselves as being trapped between the two and their resistance was fierce. 1993 Vance Owen Peace Plan giving Croats command over areas where Muslims lived as ethnic majority would have fueled such perceptions decisively – but ICTY Trial Chamber gave no consideration to this fact! In fact, the fiction work by Mesic seems to have been more important to ICTY Trial Chamber than the sorry truth of calamitous and anger provoking interference by the international community in addressing the complex ethnic issues of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
A full ICTY Trial Chamber judgment from 29 May 2013 reportedly contains over 2,600 pages and it’s being prepared still; it was not published at the same time as its summary – extraordinary! Intending no disrespect towards the victims, I can’t wait to read the gruesome details of crimes proven to have been committed by unnamed and unknown individuals and not by those who have copped the guilty by association or motive verdict!
The verdict of joint criminal enterprise perpetrated in order to create an independent Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, and eventually join it to the Republic of Croatia suggests that the very idea of secession is, in itself, now considered a criminal act! Why has the international community tolerated and accepted the created Serbian Republic within Bosnia and Herzegovina (which records all manner of war crimes, including Srebrenica genocide) since Dayton agreement of 1995!? Croatia’s, Bosnia and Herzegovina’s, Slovenia’s and Macedonian secession from former Yugoslavia during those years was not and is not considered a criminal act, so a certain domino effect of secession attempts at that time must have been expected to spill within the seceded states of former Yugoslavia and facts show that there were in fact several: Croatian Serbs with the aid of Belgrade led Yugoslav Peoples Army attempted to secede their self-proclaimed and brutalised Serb Republic of Krajina from Republic of Croatia, Serbian Republic in Bosnia and Herzegovina did the same, only with better success; Kosovo has been attempting the same – to secede or gain independence from Serbia. No one though has yet been prosecuted for the act of secession! The means to achieve secession seems to be the focal point of the ICTY prosecution, i.e. war crimes. If that is the case, and it certainly seems to be, why has the ICTY not gone after the actual individual perpetrators of those crimes? The answer could very well lie in political plots, which seem to favour one nation of people or one leader more than others – in attempts to judge history and not real criminals.
And since I’m writing about Stjepan Mesic and his public statements he has always said that individuals and not politics are responsible for war crimes and must be prosecuted – he had evidently held a different candle when he told his story to the ICTY Trial Chamber hearings.
Visiting Switzerland, Buchs, in March 1992, Stjepan Mesic was asked: Are the claims about an agreement between Tudjman and Milosevic regarding the territorial division of Bosnia and Herzegovina at all true? Mesic replied: “They are not. There are no agreements between Tudjman and Milosevic. We have talked with Milosevic because we had to find out what the thief wants.” This is the translation into English from the March 1992 Buchs video that follows here below:
When seen through the politically strategic and copious instances of Mesic’s media statements with the same or similar content (that Tudjman and Milosevic agreed to start the war in 1991 and to divide Bosnia and Herzegovina between Croatia and Serbia), before and after his testimony at the ICTY, one must, absolutely must, question the truth in what he says and said on the matter.
It is utterly regretful that, after confidentiality was lifted from his ICTY testimony, there have been no attempts by the Croatian government to bring the matter to some court proceedings in order to pin down the truths and the lies of Mesic’s claims. After all each of these has affected and will affect Croatia and its people gravely in the future. Perhaps the reason for this lies in the ugly truth where die-hard communists are and were (after Tudjman’s death) occupying the most important positions of government bodies. It is in no way beneficial to wait for years on end in the trust that an Appeal will overturn the verdict of joint criminal enterprise (as it had done in the Croatian Generals Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markac case). Mesic’s words are an immediate and urgent problem Croatia needs to solve for the benefit of its people, not for some argy-bargy historical entry into the journal of the breakup of former Yugoslasvia. Ina Vukic, Prof. (Zgb); B.A., M.A.Ps. (Syd)
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(From Facebook) Love the attacks on Mesic’s true colours in this article. Well written. Keep it up.
its funny how you all the time forget to mention Josip Manolic,Paraga,recorded tapes,transcripts of Tudman.
Amir Pilipovic – there is no avoidance of anyone, or forgetting to mention them, but since you mention Josip Manolic – I would not trust him either and he is just as capable of creating fables as Mesic is. And do not think I am biased, I state that with great knowledge and first hand experiences…but one cannot in a single post or article look at tapes and transcripts – and once Full Judgment is published I’m certain there will be more opportunity to write and comment. This article is about Mesic’s credibility mainly and as far as I am concerned (and I’m not subjective nor biased, I base my opinion on quite a bit of experience) he has got not much and especially where Tudjman is concerned.
It kind of looks as if the idea of Mesic not telling the truth has hit a nerve with you Amir Pilipovic, this is not the only time he has been caught in lies, there were many including his suspect dealings with charitable funds sent via him from diaspora in early 1990’s – matter still going on I believe to trace the lies. Oh please don’t place Josip Manolic where he does not belong. Tudjman’s only mistake was to trust these two with positions of power, following for instance their trail in defending communist crimes is enough to doubt their credibility and care for victims of crimes. You too should not be happy that real criminals have not answered for their crimes that occurred in a very volatile times when individuals so inclined surely breached orders and went on killing sprees. You do not seem to like Tudjman and that is OK, we all have the right to like or dislike but truth does not tolerate such luxuries.
You mean the Communist mass murder during and after WWII justifier if not facilitator Josip Manolic who was kicked out of government and HDZ (1990’s) for trying to stage a coup with Mesic in cohoots with German BND in Operation Weisbaden, who admitted in cross-examination at the ICTY that other than his own contradictory conspiracy theories and fact-less speculation, he had no concrete evidence to prove anything?
Neo-Ustasha Paraga (the most interviewed Croatian politician in 1991 by Milosevic’s media, sheer “coincidence”) is a “credible” witness?
The same Paraga who was demanding a Croatia to the river Drina who said that he had the transcripts to the Karadjordjevo meeting (the myth over which, was created by none other than Vojislav Seselj who was interviewed by the Serbian press and said days before the meeting that Milosevic was going to “divide Bosnia” with Tudman – insinuation being Milosevic was giving up on the Serbia to what can be seen from Zagreb’s capital, meaning he was trying to discredit Milosevic in the eyes of the 94% greater Serbian nationalist voters and sway them to vote for him instead) in 1991 and has yet to publish them?
Some “witnesses”!
In real courts, hearsay, conjecture, and the repetition of (mis)quotes entirely out of context don’t count for evidence.
That is why the ICTY was and remains a kangaroo court, because, as was the case with the initial ruling against Gotovina and Markac (with the same judges that ruled Knin was “excessively and indiscriminately shelled,” with one single armed paramilitary the only “victim,” called the leveling of Vukovar by Perisic and the direct subordinates of Stanisic and Simatovic that killed over 3,000 civilians, not to mention the post-occupation massacres, a “legitimate military operation” against a legitimate military objective), the ICTY relies entirely on hearsay, conjecture and the ad infinitum repetition of misquotes entirely out of context as “evidence.”
If Croatia and Croatians in B&H hatched and oversaw a plan to subjugate and or destroy Bosniaks in B&H, why did all B&H Croats vote for BiH independence? Why was Croatia the first nation to recognize BiH, and why was the first foreign ambassador to B&H from Croatia? Why did Croats take in over 150,000 Muslim refugees into HZHB territory in the Spring and Summer of 1992 and another 500,000 Muslims in Croatia that same year, and house, feed, and cloth them and then arm and train their men on the territory of HZHB and Croatia to fight the JNA-VRS in coordination with the HVO as ABiH members and or as members of the HVO?
Why did the HVO fight the JNA-VRS to a standstill and start kicking them back off of 85% of the territory of what is the Federation today in the Spring and Summer of 1992 (with the HVO taking in over 150,000 Muslim refugees into the HZHB and feeding them, sheltering them, clothing them and arming and training the Bosniak males of military age) if Tudman “dealt” Bosnia with Milosevic – the claim first made by none other than Vojislav Seselj (he was lamenting that Milosevic wasn’t interested with Serbian borders on the ouskirts of Zagreb) – and repeated by a host of people who were never at Karadjordjevo (the illogic of the Karadjordjevo myth being the war in Croatia itself, as well as the HVO’s March 1992-Nov 1995 fight against the JNA-VRS).
Or Croatia allow and facilitate the formation of two of the ABiH’s 7 Corps on the territory of the Republic of Croatia? Or the 2nd Corps having a logistical center on Ilica 39 in Zagreb – the entire duration of the war, including during the ABiH-HVO conflict? Or the ABiH recieving arms the duration of the war – including the duration of the ABiH-HVO conflict?
How can Croatia or the Croatian Army have been an “aggressor” in BiH when the only successful combined arms operations launched against the so-called JNA / VRS were a) Allowed by the signed agreements between Sarajevo and Zagreb b) Planned, led, supplied (both the HVO and ABiH), partially staffed and entirely overseen by the HV; namely, Operations Lipanjske Zore (1992), Zima 94, Skok 1, Skok 2, and Maestral,?
If Croats accepting Cutliero’s peace plan and the VOPP is “dividing Bosnia,” why aren’t Vance and Owen on trial?
The simple truth is that the actual, entire chronological order of events and elementary logic and reason demolish the entire prosecution case and ruling, which was and remains a violent gang rape of truth and reason.
HZHB was formed the day Vukovar fell in December 1991, because Sarajevo was unwilling to do anything to a) Thwart Serbia’s genocidal aggression against Croatia which was being waged from and supplied over the territory of B&H, not even talking military terms here, but even making a public verbal protest b) Do anything to organize ANY defense from the JNA which was openly arming SDS paramilitaries by December 1991 for over two years, with Izetbegovic even stating that the JNA would “defend Bosnia” and that it was “our army” even AFTER the brutal JNA-Chetnik paramilitary massacre of dozens of Croatian civilians in O C T O B E R 1991 in Ravno, B&H, after which Izetbegovic stated “To nije nas rat” / “That is not our war,” despite the Croatians in Ravno being citizens of the state he was President of and all voting for him.
The HVO, thanks to Croatia and the HV assistance, saved Croats in B&H and Bosniaks in Bihac and on 85% of the territory of what is the today the Federation from the fate of Foca and Bijeljina in Eastern Bosnia and Srebrenica.
The HVO stopped the JNA-VRS on 85% of the territory of B&H in the Spring and Summer of 1992 while, outside of Sarajevo, 95% of Bosniak areas in Eastern and Western Bosnia fell without as much a shot fired by Alija’s TO and ABiH because of their lack of organization and unwillingness to open their eyes to the fact that Milosevic Serbianized the JNA way back in 1988.
The only successful large-scale combined arms operation in 1992 against the JNA-VRS was Operacija Lipanjske Zore / Operation June Dawn, which was an HV-HVO operation under the command of WWII Partisan fighter, Croatian General Janko Bobetko as Zagreb and Sarajevo had signed a military cooperation agreement ALLOWING for HV units to operate in B&H.
One single company sized element (misnamed as a battalion), the “Samostalni Bataljun,” was the only all-Muslim unit that took part in Operation June Dawn.
Unfortunately the cabal of mostly Sandzak-born Bosniak JNA and JNA Counterintelligence (KOS) officers who fought against Croatia in 1991 – Delic, Delimustafic, Hadzihasanovic, Kubura and the rest of the JNA / KOS generals and operatives Izetbegovic surrounded himself with, convinced that clueless Islamist that it was better to carve out a Bosniak state and attack the Croats who they miscalculatingly thought would be the path of least resistance for more Muslim Bosniak living space – with the assistance of Islamist terrorists Izetbegovic called to help fight against the wishes of Croats and every sane Bosniak Muslim.
The result of Bosniak aggression was the Muslim-Croat civil war, and over 170,000 Croats ethnically cleansed at gunpoint in Central Bosnia, North Herzegovina, and East Mostar and barred from returning (post-war the return has been thwarted institutionally by mountains of paperwork, and of course by not-so sporadic terrorist violence and ritual murders) the internment of 14,444 Croats (only 4,000 of them HVO POWs captured by the ABiH and jihadi terrorists, the rest civilians) in 331 ABiH concentration camps, of which over 600 murdered in ABiH custody, and a total of 1,051 Croatian civilian deaths, including 121 children.
The charade is obvious, and it is over.
The ICTY was created to equate guilt, namely, whitewash Serbia’s guilt for a) Pre-planning the wars, in particular, their genocidal conduct outlined in the Rampart (RAM) Plan which Serbian Yugoslav People’s Army officers authored that ordered the systematic targeting of civilians b) Instigating, coordinating and continuing the wars and c) Committing well over 90% of all attrocities, in Croatia, B&H and Kosovo d) Serbia’s wars having support of over 90% of Serbian voters.
Stanisic and Simatovic were let off and Prlic et. al. railroaded because the UN itself aided and abetted Milosevic by imposing the immoral arms embargo, and UN officials’ chummy relations with Serb leaders and paramilitaries in Croatia and B&H.
The UN, UK, France, Netherlands and Sweden were lobbying for a consolidation of the maximal extended borders for Serbia the duration of the conflict, demanding Croat and Bosniak capitulation repeatedly at every farcial peace talk initiative, until the HV / HVO crushed the VRSK and VRS in the summer and early fall of 1995.
The ICTY was and remains a means for the UN itself, UK,
France, Netherlands and Sweden to wash their hands of the oceans of blood their top diplomats facillited Milosevic to spill.
Who stopped Milosevic and forced him to sue for peace after his forces were crushed in engagement after engagement winter 1994 through the fall of 1995?
Franjo Tudman, the HV, HVO and HZHB/HRHB leadership.
Which led to Wednesday’s irrational, illogical, contradictory punishment for Tudman, Susak, Bobetko, and the HV and HVO preventing Bihac from making Srebrenica look like an episode of Captain Kangaroo, and forcing Milosevic to sue for peace in borders that were too small for Milosevic’s Serbia (and its facilitators in the foreign policy centers of the UK, France, Netherlands and Sweden).
The ICTY acquittal of Stanisic and Simatovic has effectively sentenced B&H to war in the near future.
In terms of Praljak, Prlic et. al. and their ruling, I highly suggest all readers of Mr. Parish’s article read Lt. Col. Dr. Charles Reginald Schrader’s book The Muslim-Croat Civil War in Central Bosnia 1992-1995: http://www.amazon.com/The-Muslim-Croat-Civil-Central-Bosnia/dp/1585442615/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1369821066&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Muslim+Croat+Civil+War.
Lt. Col. Dr. C.R. Schrader taught as a professor of military history at West Point and the US Army War college – he was commissioned to do a study by the ICTY for the Blaskic trial – being that his findings demolished the entire case of Blaskic, it was, as in the Prlic et. al. case for all of the same reasons, barred from being entered into evidence and he barred from being allowed in as a witness.
The bottom line is that the ruling against Prlic et. al. is a farce – factually inaccurate, based off of hearsay, conjecture, contradictory verbal gymnastics, and the cherry picking of events out of chronological order (skipping between months, decades and even centuries) ignoring all of the preceding events and circumstances, as well as end results.
Take, for instance, the nature of the conflict itself.
The HVO was outnumbered 7 to 1 in Central Bosnia, 3 to 1 in North Herzegovina and roughly 1 to 1 in Mostar and W Herzegovina.
Why?
Izetebegovic wasn’t sending his forces to the lines with the Serbs, he was sending them to face the Croats.
Despite the HVO-led and almost entirely HVO-manned Posavina Corridor defense meaning the end of Western RS and the “Krajina”, Izetbegovic was the spring, summer and fall of 1992 sending tens of thousands of ABiH troops and reinforcements to already (nearly to a location, HVO-liberated) liberated areas instead of the life-and-death corridor for W RS and “Krajina,” Posavina, where they were desperately needed.
To even suggest that the HVO would have the motive and above all, means to attack the ABiH is an exercise of criminal insanity.
That Islamist terrorist volunteers that Izetbegovic called against the wishes of every Croat and every sane Bosniak were harassing Croats in Central Bosnia, and radicalizing local Bosniaks with their religious hate speech and propaganda, long before open fighting took place, was entirely ignored.
As was the fact that the dates cited by the prosecution of “HVO attacks” were actually HVO c-o-u-n-t-e-r — a-t-t-a-c-k-s from preceding ABiH attacks against them.
Prozor, for instance, first saw the ABiH attack the HVO in town and cleanse the local Croat residents as the ABiH, unlike the HVO, refused to respect the Tudman-Izetbegovic agreement that mandated that all HVO units in majority Bosniak areas subordinate themselves to the command of the ABiH and all ABiH units in areas with a Croat majority do the same.
The entire case against Prlic et. al. hangs on hearsay and conjecture (the Ashdown napkin in which Tudman drew the borders of what is now the Federation of B&H and theKaradjordjevo myth that is debunked by the war in Croatia itself and the HVO’s March 1992-Nov 1995 fight against the JNA-VRS), as well as willfull ignorance.
Namely, the judgement ruled that the first clash between Croats and Bosniaks took place on Oct. 23 in Prozor, when “the HVO attacked the town of Prozor and its surroundings.”
What is missing is the fact that:
a) The HVO “attack” was actually a counter-attack after the ABiH murdered four HVO members during what was supposed to be a relief in place on post in the village of Dobrasin, but was actually an ambush that was to set the stage for the larger TO/ABiH attack to push Croatian civilians and soldiers alike out of Prozor;
b) The first act of violence took place on Radusa mountain where four HVO soldiers were killed by their Army of B&H “allies” while doing a leaders reconnaissance on JNA-VRS forward positions in an ambush from behind, on June 13, 1992;
c) On Oct. 1-5 1992 skirmishes break between Croatians and Muslims and foreign Islamist militants in the municipality of Novi Travnik, in the villages of Senkovci, Sinokos and Donje Pecine, Opara, as well as in the city of Novi Travnik. The Army of B&H escalated its use of force and engaged in excessive and indiscriminate artillery against the villages, injuring several civilians, and launched an artillery and mortar assault that was followed by infantry assault against the HVO command post and the HVO Field Hospital in Travnik, the latter destroyed. Two nearby apartment buildings inhabited by Croats were set on fire by Army of B&H and foreign Islamists and frenzied local civilians after they kicked out the residents at gunpoint.
d) The fighting on Oct. 23 in Prozor was planned on Oct. 21, at the meeting of the “Headquarters of territorial defense forces of Prozor municipality,” where commanders of Muslim forces from neighboring municipalities met at the house of Zibo Korman in the village of Blace (municipality Rama-Prozor). The chairperson Mustafa Hero, the commander of Muslim forces in Prozor said, and this is according to the meeting minutes taken by Alija Emric, that on Friday, October 23rd 1992 “the fight will start” and that at the end of it “The Muslims will call the shots in the city”, and that in “the fight” they would be helped by Bosniak Muslim reinforcements from Gornji Vakuf (around 1000 fighters) and Konjic (around 500 men).
This means that contrary to the Prosecution claims and judgement allegations, Bosniak fighters attacked the Croats in Dobrasin and in Prozor town itself, which they did, expelling the HVO and all Croat civilians at gunpoint, and the Croats were forced to counter-attack, which they did.
The reason Hero and his cohorts planned the attack was because they and the ABiH in general rejected the signed agreement between Tudman and Izetbegovic and orders issued from the Presidency of B&H in October 1992 that subordinated ABiH units in Croatian majority areas to the command structure of the HVO and HVO units in Bosniak majority areas to the command structure of the ABiH.
The second most glaring factually innacurate premise is what the judgement ruled as the actual start of open conflict. It claims the “first clashes between the HVO and the ABiH took place on 11 and 12 January 1993 in the Municipality of Gornji Vakuf. On 16 January 1993, pursuant to an order issued the previous day, the Main Staff of the HVO demanded that the ABiH in Gornji Vakuf subordinate its troops to the HVO. The ABiH rejected this demand.”
What was ignored by the Prosecution, and the Judges (well, the Judge and the two “judges”) is that between January 8-10, 1993, one hundred Croats were ethnically cleansed from Muslim-majority sections of Gornji Vakuf by ABiH members and civilians alike.
To summarize – the entire premise of the case is based on a false premise, namely, the “convenient” ommission of very relevant preceding events that demolish the entire premise of Prosecution indictment and the subsequent judgement.
Not to even mention the role of radical Islam and all of the attacks against Croats in Central Bosnia, North Herzegovina and East Mostar during the conflict – for which a total of 6 years was meted out in prison to Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0NGcjcPUN0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSj6ugWhQSA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu03YS8ayCI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqKAqSVEQlI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSj6ugWhQSA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLZeZFqXE7U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfwQNJb0r1I
The Prosecution’s indictment and the courts’ ruling were and remain political ones with no basis on law (two of the “judges” are not actual judges in real life nor qualified to be), on the actual chronology of events, or the totality of the evidence.
therealamericro – thank you for bringing these details here – further insight into the front line and background as to how, I think, the presiding judge Antonetti could have formed his opinion against joint criminal enterprise
How many of you know that Josip Manolic,Stjepan Kljujic have been witnesses in haage ,prosecution has 100 recorded tapes and 17000k transcripts or 85kg of it.All about Tudman.
If you are saying or mean to say how Josip Manolic is nice than you better watch his testimony in Haage,Or if you believe he so honest he would not lie,Well in that case you have to agree with Haage and its ruling.Becouse I think Manolic has done more damage to it then Mesic just becouse he was believable,I even think Kljujic has done more damage then Mesic.
Josip Manolic and Stjepan Kljujic deserve separate articles to be written and I would like to do that; am actually waiting for the full judgment to be published so I can go through it. Thanks Amir Pilipovic
Well Amir Pilipovic, since the ICTY built its case around the alleged ICTY and witch-hunt against Tudjman of course it’ll be about him but that does not mean the material is worth much for the victims (or truth when it comes to JCE) and the fact that they deserve that names of their killers be known – you know, I have not seen a recommendation by ICTY Trial Chamber summary of judgment towards such goals, perhaps it’ll be in the full judgment?
I would say that this is irrefutable proof of how Mesic operates – he is prepared to say anything it seems if it suits his goals, whom he is with, what he is saying something for… Just awful. He is probably a master at getting away with things, explaining the why’s but one fact he cannot explain away is that he says contradictory things about one and the same matter and, therefore, one can never believe him without the benefit of black and write proof.
And what about Tudjmans own words? It´s funny how much the rethoric here resembles the rethoric used by serb deniers and nationalists. You people are just spreading hate. In fact this whole blog is a bizzare shrine to “Saint Franjo” and his disciples, Gojko, Ante and that other one whatshisface? The one nobody really can remember? Gotovina + his other half, they make a cute couple. Right… It´s all a conspiracy, everybody is lying poor poor defensless croats…
Ljubo S.:
Please provide the words you are referring to.
And please, no copy-pasting discredited wartime agitprop that is continually rehashed on SUC, Serbianna, Islambosna or Bosnjaci.net.
Thank you.
Well written, Ina. While one cannot disregard the crimes that were committed one cannot also disregard the fact that Mesic’s testimony is horribly unsafe and that the victims of those crimes should have this kind of justice. There is no justice in this judgment for those victims, for the real perpetrators who obviously went wild as blood ran hot still walk the streets unaffected, unpunished … At times like these I wish the UN didn’t exist at all!
The problem with Mesic is that although his statements contradict each other, who knows which one, if either, is true? One minute he says there was no collusion between Tudjman and Milosevic and now he says there was. As “Wilkinson” points out, he gets away with it but we still don’t know which version is the more truthful.
True Pavao – the only thin we know if that Mesic does not appear to be a credible witness and therefore, it is unbelievable that the ICTY has left it at this and doesn’t seem to have prodded into his credibility. By the same token the defence of the accused would have contradicted what Mesic said so it boils down to perhaps Mesic being more charming or had better charisma than the defendants – how shocking is this thought for justice!
As far as I have followed everything about that war, Pavao, and I have followed closely and was directly involved I am absolutely convinced that Mesic 1992 version, that there was no agreement between Tudjman and Milosevic, is the true version. Everything else falls into the category of Mesic’s political survival at the top at all costs.
Knowing how Mesic operates (skilful at weaseling out of tight spots or caught in a lie), Pavao, he is most likely to say that in 1992 he couldn’t tell the public the truth because Tudjman and Mesic agreements had to be kept secret – the only problem with this as I see is: given that in 1993 or 1994 when he split from Tudjman, or Tudjman booted him out of parliamentary presidency, forming a new political party Mesic was saying that he could not accept nor tolerate Tudjman’s politics regarding Bosnia and Herzegovina. So, why if he despised such politics so much and if such politics are like a JCE did Mesic stay close to Tudjman. being second man in HDZ and Croatia etc? Why did he not leave HDZ in 1991 instead of 1994? Mesic is full of bull and I couldn’t believe him if my life depended on it
Well if you listen to Josip Manolic,Paraga and many others ,tapes,transcripts of Tudman,meetings Karadzic,Mladic with Praljak,Boban,or Bobetko maybe Spegelj would do it.Then you would most likely believe to Mesic..Documentary GREATER CROATIA you can see on youtube will give better idea of what was going on.
Amir Pilipovic, thank you for reminding me about the film Dispatches dabbling in what they call idea of “Greater Croatia” and I have made a point of re-watching it and am only more convinced now in what I said in my article: you tell a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. The film says it talks with two witnesses of the Tudjman & Milosevic meeting at Karadjordjevo in 1991 and then almost in the same breath the so-called witnesses say that the meeting was secret between the two – no witnesses! Furthermore, it talks of maps reportedly discussed there but we all know that there were probably more than 20 different maps on BiH circulating around, from all sides including Lord Owen and Cyrus Vance. Indeed in the film Lord Owen doesn’t explain why he actually went ahead creating a map for his peace plan when he says he knew of Croat personal aspirations there and was “against” them… One has to ask why Owen, Carrington, Vance etc were not or are not made to answer for what they did…
The film to my view was tailor made to support the theory of Croat aggression and to support the lies Mesic was spreading about this more loudly in 1994… Why did the film not interview those who had different views and interpretations. Surely, given the conflict and the political nightmare going on with various secessions from Yugoslavia one would expect that from a credible film maker. Hey, but this film was made in Britain, by the British, who sent their Lords to carve up BiH, dangle the carve-up in front of people etc. The film circles around Tudjman’s views about Croats in BiH and all they could offer is that Tudjman thought Croats of BiH are the same people as Croats of Croatia (ethnically speaking) and that historically both have been together in a same state – this is not a warped view as the film tries to show it, this is a fact.
The film talks about Nov 1991 dispatch from Tudjman that talks about an agreement reached in Zagreb but it does not say who the parties to this agreement were nor who initiated it, nor who asked for what (?support) – if it has to do with creating Herceg-Bosna community at that time then, given the relatively small size of Croatian population in BiH who felt threatened at that time of unrest and political upheaval I personally do not see why they would be denied support and help from their natural ally next door…
While this forum is not adequate nor suitable to solve the issues about Croat-Bosniak conflict in BiH, and while I stand abhorred at crimes committed by both sides, I will not accept as truth theories padded with bits and pieces of information and quotes about such an important matter.
To stick to the theme of my article, I have found yet another corroboration for what I say about lies regarding Karadjordjevo meeting and Stjepan Mesic’s sorry and utterly vilifying pursuits against Tudjman – and that corroboration comes from the person who was actually interviewed in Dispatches:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj_hUtw-HKA
(From Facebook): Ahh yes …. the more unbelievable the story you consistently tell, the more people will accept its purported ‘veracity’ … like dealing with bankers …. the bigger amount that you owe to banks means the less likely that they will pursue you as much as they pursue the easier to catch ‘smaller’ debtor !
ICTY COURT IN HAGUE IS LIKE NAZI COURT, IMPRISONING 6 CROATS OF BIH ON THE BASIS OF BIG LIES.
It’s no secret that perjury does occur, that is why there are laws against it and jail sentences if found guilty. It’s no secret that Mesic has been defending himself in public from all sorts of allegations of questionable funding for his presidential election campaign, of improper and suspect handling of charitable funds from the diaspora in early 1990’s etc. So, where there is smoke there is definitely fire – Mesic may have been telling the truth at the Hague but ONLY as far as him believing his own story he made up, one does get to believe even own delusions. It’s jus all too awful for Croatia, for the Croats from Herceg-Bosna.
Ina Vukic how is Tudman in his own words witch-hunt,papers signed by Tudman witch -hunt,You must be giving it whole new meaning.
Amir Pilipovic – I haven’t seen the content of the papers signed to make a comment other than what I have, and generally looking at how the film is constructed one cannot get much further away from seeing a witch hunt. Every document has a story as to how and why it came to be and every document has content, I could not read it by watching the film to be able to comment in any other way than I have. As to Tudjman’s own words I understand them but they are still not telling me what the ICTY is saying – perhaps because I know the wider picture and take into consideration the times and the political events in the region and possibilities that arose … I just don’t know why Lord Owen, Cyrus Vance, Lord Carrington etc were not indicted, or their superiors, for attempting to divide B&H – I’m not speaking subjectively, I just look at the whole picture there… and your point still doesn’t prove to me that Mesic didn’t lie, that his and some others’ views were not preferred to views of others by the ICTY and I must wonder why
ICTY said for the 5th time that Tudman,Susak ,Bobetko did ethnic cleansing,war crimes,house burning etc,Now i honestly dont know how you and many croats have missed 4times,After Kordic,Rajic,Tuti,Blaskic what did you think will happen to 6,Did you really honestly think think Court will say ,you guys are free you can go home We have made mistake in case of Kordic,Rajic,Tuti and Blaskic.Is it really that hard to connect dots.
Amir Pilipovic – as much as you may want this space to become some sort of Appeals Chamber for the case I would like to wait for actual appeal at the court and due process to take place; – regardless of Kordic, Rajic, Tuti, Blaskic cases all process has not been exhausted and Blaskic case was an interesting turn of events from over 40 years imprisonment to about 9 – to cover time or much of it he had spent in ICTY cells – I will though write some post on Bosniak crimes in order to give this blog balance – I’ve written about Serb crimes, Croat crimes but not Muslim crimes at that time. I nor anyone denies the fact that Croats committed crimes in Bosnia and Herzegovina but guilt for those must be applied to those who perpetrated ones not some theory of JCE – if the supposed JCE were that strong as ICTY claims then crimes would have been much more spread, more individuals if not all would have committed war crimes and that is simply not the case. As far as connecting the dots goes it’s an easy endeavour it’s just a matter of what shape someone is connecting the dots into – or how one interprets evidence etc – we’re not simple minded at all, on the contrary …
Tudman never divided Bosnia.
However, Izetbegovic did, with Karadzic, in a signed agreement in 1993 that effectively recognized RS independence if it so chose to pursue it; and Izetbegovic personally offered Tudman W. Herzegovina in 1994 – Tudman refused.
http://www.hic.hr/ratni-zlocini/b-h/muslimani/pregovori.htm
http://www.hic.hr/ratni-zlocini/b-h/muslimani/kronologija.htm
http://www.hic.hr/ratni-zlocini/b-h/muslimani/kronologija00.htm
http://www.hic.hr/ratni-zlocini/b-h/muslimani/kronologija01.htm
http://www.hic.hr/ratni-zlocini/b-h/muslimani/kronologija02.htm
http://www.hic.hr/ratni-zlocini/b-h/muslimani/kronologija03.htm
http://www.hic.hr/ratni-zlocini/b-h/muslimani/kronologija04.htm
We all know tudman never divided Bosnia,nor I know anybody who says that,He is accused of trying.I if you dont for good or bad reason trust Tudman and his own words you will never trust anybody in your life,you may have trust issues or fear of the truth,On the other hand anybody who cares about this case can google TRUNSCRIPTS OF TUDMAN or go to youtube to ICTY (they have 20000 videos)and listen or read,watch how Tudman did want HERCEGOVINA,Or if you just ask your self what independent,only croats can hold power,Mostar is capital city in HRHB really means.In transcripts not only that Tudman is talking about Bosnia ,war crimes,old bridge in mostar,ethnic cleansing,HE also says after the war how Croatia has to fight for Hercegovina,And not only that He also talks on how he has stolen 1billion $ .names the banks,deposits,transfers ,people involved etc,And sad part of it is he ripped you off,He fooled you Croatian diaspora.
You obviously think we are uneducated, gullible idiots in diaspora Amir Pilipovic. Enjoy your views but Tudjman fooled no one, either in diaspora or the homeland, it the others who had fooled him with their “love and loyalty for Croatia ” and went against him, taking often his words out of context, making up stories of all sorts. Since you mention stealing – google Mesic rather than Tudjman, at least diaspora has proven Mesic’s side of taking money from it, but never Tudjman’s. I am a witness of this and not secret one either!
@Amir:
You can conveniently ignore the chronology of events and the entirety of evidence / history / common sense / elementary logic, but when you back your “arguments” up with empty, discredited slogans, it does not make your “arguments” valid – especially when we are talking about a political court whose objective (and as we have seen, mission / final results via obscene rulings with Perisic, Stanisic and Simatovic) is evident (see my fact-based, chronological order of events-based response to your discredited mantras above).
Your Alija was an imbecile, incompetent moron who is, due to his own monumental political autism, unwittingly aided and abetted Milosevic and Mladic in their genocidal aggression against Croatia and B&H.
He compounded his grotesque stupidity by turning against those who saved him and his people (Bosniaks) from physical extermination – the Croats, because he was dumb enough to believe they were the path of least resistance to get his fantasy Islamic state with access to the coast because the Brits, French, Dutch and UN that pushed the embargo promised scraps to him.
Good luck finding arms, supplies, hospital treatment, and even political lipservice, let alone support, when Seselj is released by the Kangaroo Court you love and respect so much (which also dropped the genocide outside of Srebrenica charges against Karadzic and Mladic) and elected in the snap elections that follow, after which RS will make its independence bid.
The fact is that Croatia is joining the EU on July 1, which will bring Croatian’s exponential political soft power in Europe, let alone the bankrupt loser former “Yugoslav” region.
There are no more carrots and sticks for Croatia – no threats of no NATO or EU entry anymore. There is nothing to hang over Croatia’s head anymore.
Croatian companies are already moving production to Croatian areas of The Failed Colonial Protectorate Called BiH, which means exponential political and economic power within B&H.
The Croatian Question (http://www.transconflict.com/2013/02/the-end-of-the-lagumdzija-komsic-affair-and-the-future-of-the-federation-182/) will be, with Croatian EU entry, a frequent point of order and discussion topic in both Brussels and Strasbourg.
You Bosniaks really need to consider securing your megalomanic fantasies of making Croats disappear and or making them “Bosnian Catholics” or “Herzegovinian Catholics,” because you have no political capital other than when those who aided and abetted Milosevic and his hordes’ extermination of you (and us Croats) give it to you to solidify RS, with you Bosniaks too stupid to realize it (as was the case in 2000, 2004, 2009, and today).
This government is, due to its catastrophic lack of any coherent economic policy, on the fast train to the exit door. Don’t hold your breath on having slaves of Belgrade like Josipovic, Pusic and the KOS prostitute Mesic around much longer.
Ah, therealamericro – Bosnia’s Alija Izetbegovic and his Muslim Army placed their faith upon jihadists from abroad, the Mujahideens, Al Qaeda’s sons to save his Bosnia and Herzegovina for he was not too happy about continuing with Croatia’s support against Serb aggression – Izetbegovic would have gobbled up Bosnian Croats for breakfast if given half a chance.
Ina your problem is writing blogs,stories without doing research or validity of it.I have just read a story on croats in jerusalem post,Where they say Croats did not have gas,gas chambers ,but they did have big sharp knifes and hammers to kill poor jews in wwii,Jeremic did have clown show in un ,but nobody so any croat there,Haage said Gotovina you are free Tudman and Susak are responsible for all the crimes and you proclaimed it as big day in Cro history,Tudman does talk about ripping you off with Borislav Skegro(never heard of him before).In 2020 world opinion will be that croatia was aggressor both in Cro and Bosnia.You are acctualy deffending serbs by deffending Tudman or saying croats had right to all of it(so did serbs)6 in haage said crimes have happened,house burning ,destroying of mostar etc but they have know idea who did it,Now to you and some croats it means 6 is so honest while to rest of us it means they have never investigated any crimes,they did not prosecute anybody for it becouse they really dont care It sounds as lawless organisation,army or if you want Cowboy army.
There is no problem with my blogging Amir Pilipovic, my reader statistics confirm that and I remain most grateful for that. As far as validity is concerned you will not find a fault if you pay attention to details I write and what I refer to, the sources I use are all legitimate. The problem starts when someone like you go off into wild sweeping statements coloured with hysteria and then find it hard to actually return to the details I write about. The public is the best judge of all when it comes to material published and so far I am proud of having represented the truth, you may not like that truth but that is your problem, I hold my head high. I research my material well and I always place links for readers to read further if they wish to. Of course, the problem is in that you have your own opinion on facts or non-facts which does not agree with mine and that’s OK too, everyone has a right to opinion. I wish you would at least give the title of the article in Jerusalem Post you mention. I have a hunch though that you are referring to the article published there on 30 May, “…Croatia’s hidden holocaust” – well I must say that I had read it too, and I had placed two comments with it but Jerusalem Post had not published my comments and I suppose that is because I pointed them to facts they could not deny, facts that throws their article into garbage bin – e.g. recent irrefutable proof that Cardinal Stepinac actually saved Jews and not the other way around as they keep peddling. I pointed them to dr Esther Gitman’s research on Stepinac and others who saved Jews in Croatia, the research that used documents hidden by Tito and the communists… I suspect you may not like it but I am included in a rather large project worldwide as reaction to such articles. Tudjman hasn’t ripped me off. I don’t want a Cowboy army and I don’t want a Mujahideen one. Regarding the latter nicely covered up and widely ignored so far the year 2020 will hopefully apportion guilt as facts and not politics dictate. No matter what you say I still prefer the world to punish the criminals who commit the actual crimes to the world that ignores criminals and uses their crimes to convict other through political prism. By the way I am writing an article on Mujahideens and the Muslim army in Bosnia and Herzegovina – they too deserve to be recognised.
Sure you do,At one point you must ask yourself what evidence did Haage have or used vs 6 to convince them,But you said you did not read transcripts or listened tapes of Franjo Tudman.Dont you think somebody should get on it and say to Croatian people here we go ,make your own mind.This way you are trying to tell them everybody hates croats ,To blame masic who even wasnot there and to leave Manolic,Kljuic Tudmans tapes is little bit dishonest.Any honest educated or just honest croat who would go over tapes or transcripts would say something is wrong here.Also actual criminals who did crimes may live couple yards down the street,becouse they fled to australia .and may even be blogging here so you can stop now this propaganda or selling fog .Or maybe you will find them and call police since you are so honest.
You keep regurgitating your rubbish Amir Pilipovic – the article you are commenting on concentrates on the fact that Mesic is a liar and it demonstrates how in 1992 Mesic said publicly there was no agreement between Tudjman and Milanovic and then when Mesic decided it was time to hit Tudjman, for he wanted Tudjman’s presidency, Mesic started spinning there was an agreement… your sarcasm regarding bringing the actual perpetrators of war crimes and arresting them is quite appalling but I left it here because it shows the shallowness of your reasoning and the fact that you too don’t seem to care whether the actual murderers are punished as long as the political side is taken care of. Pathetic.
Amir Pilipovic – you obviously don’t know the meaning of research – keeping to the point of an article, which ideally must be brief and understandable to general public. Posts on this blog are excellent and often quite eye-opening. Your judgment is obviously clouded and you miss the point quite often in what seems to be your urge to or need to maintain your point of view while attempting to belittle others’… oh by the way the big sharp knives and hammers you so kindly brought into the conversation here from Jerusalem post, if they existed in WWII they’ve long ago rusted away and today’s Croats have nothing to do with them, but you see today’s Bosnian Muslims have a great deal to do with sharp knives, hammers and saws Al Qaeda operatives taught them to use in the Bosnian war… you asked for it, you ask for verified truth, so there it is
QUOTE: Amir Pilipovic – you obviously don’t know the meaning of research ENDQUOTE
I would add he lacks the ability to comprehend the importance of the entire chronological order of events, cause and effect, how hearsay and conjecture is not actual “evidence,” that misquotes taken entirely out of context is not “evidence,” but misquotes taken entirely out of context, and that if Vojislav Seselj is the primary / original source for the Karadjordjevo myth, than it was, and remains, a piece of used toillete paper…
the realamericro it’s quite clear that it will take quite some time to bring things to where they should be and get rid of myths. But reality is one can never get rid of myths entirely as they take up a life of their own self so there is always the need to reiterate the truth in that way more and more followers of myth see reason…
What did you understand besides ,Stipe Mesic is juda.Sharp knifes and hammers is so you know my friend that war today is being fought in media and as always croats are missing but are big on complaining when framing is over.I just thought big croat as you should spend little bit time defending your country.Anybody normal who has fallowed ICTY case vs croats knew what will happen(like Josipovic,Milanovic.Karamarko,Pusic)and then we have people like you ,people who has never wasted any time getting familiar with the case,Or if you did you would know this is 5th time where ICTY blames Tudman.Susak,Bobetko,Boban team even letting Gotovina ,Markac go ICTY said Tudman ,Susak are guilty,responsible for all the crimes that have happened in OLUJA (real reason why cro doesnot want to take serbia to court)What did you do well you throw big party in name of it.but today have problems with Mesic and ICTY.
Amir Pilipovic – you are absolutely off the track – ICTY is not about people but about specific cases on indictment and the case is either proven or not, then if needed we have the Appeal process.
Nobody thinks anybody is gullible or uneducated but to believe Tudjman did not have aspirations to annex parts of what is now BiH is stretching belief beyond limits. I will defend him against all who claim he was not pivotal to the existence of a free Hrvatska but I don’t believe he was anything like the innocent angel some may wish to claim.
You have a right to your opinion Pavao, however to call aspirations a joint criminal enterprise in this case as I assume you do means that you agree with some judges of the ICTY panel, so let’s wait and see what the appeal brings – we owe that to everyone.
@ Pavao:
So Tudman should have been eccstatic that the entirety of the territory of B&H (save the Croat areas, where Croatians put up roadblocks and got onto roads and formed human walls) was used as a staging area / supply line for genocidal aggression against Croatia Aug 1991 (in Sept. Izetbegovic’s emmisaries signed a “Historic Agreement” with Karadzic, Koljevic and Milosevic behind the Croats’ backs) through August 1995 and done nothing to prevent that nor the JNA / Chetnik massacres of Croats in B&H, to which Izetbegovic said it was “not our [Bosniak] war,” which began in Ravno on Oct. 5, 1991?
I guess Tudman should have put his head in the sand over the UN and major world powers disregarding Croatia and B&H’s territorial integrity and should not have thought about what is best strategically and tactiacally best for Croatia in the short and long term and should have concentrated on sending Croatian sons to die for Bosniaks who refused to organize, who even after Ravno were waiving Tito portraits and red star flags and rambling about how the JNA was going to “defend the people,” who had tens of thousands of able bodied men who refused to take up arms against “their” JNA and instead chose to hang out at the Croatian coast and line up at W embassies in Zagreb to seek refugee status and move to other countries?
The fact is that without Franjo Tudman, Bosniaks would either all have been, along with all B&H Croats, physically exterminated or living in refugee centers in Croatia (what was left of it) or the West.
Bosniaks should build a giant, 20 meter golden statue of Tudman in Sarajevo (or name the airport after Him and put the 20 meter golden statue of him at the main entrance), and He should have a square in every Bosniak majority city, town and village in B&H because without Tudman, every Bosniak in B&H would have shared the same fate as Bosniaks in Bijeljina, Foca and Srebrenica – death or refugee.
HZHB took in 150,000 Bosniak refugees in the spring, summer and fall of 1992 and fed, sheltered, and clothed the civilians and trained and armed the Bosniak men (those who didn’t escape to go tanning on the Dalmatian coast and wait for “that war” that destroyed their beloved socialist self-(mis)management paradise to pass).
So, for all of the logical acrobats out there, answer me this: if Tudman “divided” Bosnia in Karadjordjevo (only to have a 1991-1995 war in Croatia to follow, the “Historic Agreement” between Tunjo and Karadzic / Koljevic in Sept 1991, an assassination attempt on Tudman by the JNA in October 1991, the massacre of Croats in Ravno in October 1991, etc. etc.) with Milosevic, why form HZHB and the HVO (and just annext it) and why did the HVO and the HVO alone defend B&H Croats, Bosniaks and normal Serbs alike on 85% of the territory of what is now the Federation and HZHB take in 150,000 Bosniak refugees and clothe, feed, and house them and train and arm the Bosniak men to fight the JNA-VRS?
The so-called ICTY did not and cannot answer this question, neither can you Pavao, nor Partizan-Ustasa-Partizan-Cleptocratic Oliagarch Mesic nor neo-Ustasa Paraga nor anyone else because there was no “deal” in Karadjordjevo, and there was absolutely no “aggression” by Croatia against B&H.
There were scheming foreign dignitaries with close ties to Serbia who were openly lobbying for Milosevic’s military gains to be legally acknowledged, who were continually egging the Bosniaks on to fight the numerically inferior Croats to equate guilt (which they did), and creating negotiation and peace agreement conditions that would lead to tensions.
There were the upwards of 10,000 bearded, degenerate, mass murdering Islamist jihadi animals that came in to fight not for a democratic, multiethnic B&H, but for Islam and an Islamic B&H Caliphate, and last but not least, over a dozen KOS and JNA officers that Izetbegovic surrounded himself with and who made up his inner circle, who lost nearly 85% of pre-war Bosniak majority areas to the JNA-VRS without as much as a shot fired who pushed and pushed and finally got Izetbegovic to attack the “path of least resistance,” the Croats, after three years of Izetbegovic’s empty promises of consensus, equality and respect for the constitution (case and point the naive idiot Kljujic not being allowed to fulfill his constitutional duty as acting President by the Islamist degenerate Haris Silajdzic during the Sarajevo Airport debacle) while never engaging in consensus but continually trampling on it, while denying Croats equality and while repeatedly violating the constitution he swore he was upholding.
Their conniving, backstabbing two-faced politics and wartime and post-war scheming will not be forgiven nor forgotten.
I really hope they don’t expect any arms or supplies or medical evacuations when RS makes its bid for independence after Seselj is released like “innocent” commanders Perisic, Stanisic and Simatovic by the “legitimate” ICTY and elected as president in the subsequent snap elections that will follow his messianic return as a “martyr” for Serbdom.
They can enjoy life in total political and economic isolation in the future.
Anyone who says, or believes, that there was a “deal” in Karadjordjevo is mentally retarded.
It really is a “coincidence” that British media made the documentary about the Karadjordjevo myth considering that the UK was openly lobbying for Serb military gains in Croatia and B&H to be consolidated with a peace agreement (capitulation) acknowledging a de facto greater Serbian state, especially considering that the original source of the Karadjordjevo myth is none other than Vojislav Seselj himself, and that Serbian media and intelligence, and their agents in Croatia and B&H, continually tried to break the shakey (thanks to Izetbegovic’s two-faced policies and epochal incompetence) Croat-Muslim alliance with the who’s who of KP journos in B&H screaming about Karadjordjevo, while Seral Fribune, G-lob(otomy)us and other Yugoslav rags were villifying Muslims in Croatia.
The KP journos in B&H stayed the course to this day while the same journos baiting Muslims in Croatia became their defenders after the ABiH started its genocidal aggression against Croats in Cen. Bosnia, North Herc and E Mostar and are still on that course to this day – because defending Belgrade’s interest has been and always will be their number one priority.
Note how all of the visceral opponents of HZHB in Croatia are always deafeningly silent on the genocidal entity called RS.
Bosniak ultranationalists, Islamists and Titoist AVNOJ BiH unitarists of course conveniently forget this, because they are still obsessed with trying to steal the Croats’ crumbs as opposed to daring touch RS where actual ethnic cleansing and actual genocide was perpetrated against them (and Croats).
Their short-sightedness will guarantee them a Trokutistan from Tuzla to Zenica to Sarajevo, and a population that is entirely dependent on donations from “democratic powerhouses” like Saudi Arabia and other Islamopetrol banana states.
Let me ask you this q,they have met 48 times and nobody has disputed that,they met while serbs went on killing ,raping etc,So now dont you think its little bit weird of Tudman and do you really think they had conversation about sports,cars,women etc.If you do or dont why dont you tell us your opinion on what conversation was all about,And I mean 48 of them.
Oh for crying out loud, Amir Pilipovic, they met at the time when Croatia was seceding from communist Yugoslavia, when threats of unrest were looming, when Serbs of Croatia started blocking roads into Krajina … of course they met and met and met – as I said my article it is only natural that such meetings occurred but just because meetings occurred one does not think up a content of those meetings and starts spreading the fiction as truth …
Amir, do you know how many times
a) Izetbegovic and Koljevic met;
b) Izetbegovic and Tudman met;
c) Izetbegovic and Milosevic met?
The 48 meetings, fyi, took place AT THE INSISTENCE OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.
Your hasty conclusion is ridiculous considering all of Izetbegovic’s personal negotiations and the negotiations carried out in his name by his cabinet members and appointees.
The most shameful meeting resulting in Halilovic’s and Mladic’s mortar and artillery for cash in Operation Neretva 93.
I have to repeat this:
The fact is that without Franjo Tudman, Bosniaks would either all have been, along with all B&H Croats, physically exterminated or living in refugee centers in Croatia (or what was left of it) or the West.
Bosniaks should build a giant, 20 meter golden statue of Tudman in Sarajevo (or name the airport after Him and put the 20 meter golden statue of him at the main entrance), and He should have a square in every Bosniak majority city, town and village in B&H because without Tudman, every Bosniak in B&H would have shared the same fate as Bosniaks in Bijeljina, Foca and Srebrenica – death or life as a refugee in a foreign country.
You all are fighting who started the war. Im a Croatian who was born in 1974 in Vucovar and my family moved to Canada. My mother is Serbian and father Croatian. The ones who started the war was both Tudman and Milosevic who started to preach hate to their fellow countrymen. Then a serb went out and shot the Croatian chief of police. Then you had idiot Croatians start throwing grenades into serb homes. Serbs and Croats lived peacefully for a long time till idiots in politics took over and ruined it all. Tito would be rolling in his grave. I love both Croatian and Serbs, Shame on you all for spreading hate and saying who started it. When it so clear both leaders started hate. End of Story
No Sinisa Lach – Serbs attacked when 94% Croatian voters voted to secede from communist Yugoslavia and establish democracy – anything that occurred after that was a matter of aggression and defense – End of Story!