Josip Perkovic Photo: slobodnadalmacija.hr
Hina news as shared by Croatian news portal dalje.com
Germany to ask Croatia to arrest ex-Yugoslav agent on 1 July
On 1 July, when it enters the European Union, Croatia can expect a warrant from Germany for the arrest of a former Yugoslav intelligence officer, Josip Perkovic, who is believed to have masterminded the murder of Croatian emigrant Stjepan Djurekovic near Munich in June 1983, the German Focus weekly reported on Sunday.
The German federal prosecutorial authorities will forward to Zagreb, on the first day of Croatia’s EU membership, the warrant for the arrest of Perkovic, 68, and for his extradition to Germany.
Perkovic, who used to be the at the helm of Croatia’s branch of the Yugoslav State Security Service (SDS), is charged with having sent murderers to kill dissident Djurekovic.
In 2008, Krunoslav Prates, a Croatian citizen was convicted by the Munich High State Court to life imprisonment for his role in the execution of Djurekovic, who was found dead in a garage in the Bavarian town of Wolfratshausen. Focus recalled that five shots were fired at the victim and that also he was hit by an axe to his head.
According to the weekly, arrest warrants for five more people have also been issued in Germany, as they are believed to have been Perkovic’s aides.
Prates was arrested in July 2005 on suspicion that he had helped prepare the Djurekovic murder in 1983. The German state prosecution suspects Djurekovic was killed by members of the then Yugoslav State Security Service (SDS). Djurekovic left the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (SFRY) for political reasons after the Yugoslav authorities labelled him a dangerous Croatian nationalist.
During the trial, Prates admitted to having cooperated with the Yugoslav intelligence, notably the chief of the Croatian SDS branch Perkovic, but denied any involvement in Djurekovic’s death.
Perkovic allegedly gave keys to the garage to as yet unidentified persons, who waited for Djurekovic in the garage outside Munich on 28 June 1983 and shot him dead.
During the announcement of the verdict in July 2008, the Munich court criticised Croatia for showing no interest in the case and for failing to see to it that Perkovic also appeared before the court for this case.
The judgement in the Prates case also reads that from 1970 to 1989, 22 Croats, who fled to Germany, were killed by the Yugoslav secret services.
In late 2010, the Der Spiegel magazine reported that German Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere received a request to revoke the Federal Cross of Merit that had been awarded to Yugoslav President Josip Broz Tito by German President Gustav Heinemann in 1974.
The request for the posthumous revocation of the highest German order, which is awarded only to heads of state, has been filed by an unnamed citizen, “a victim of a failed assassination attempt by Yugoslav secret services.”
Der Spiegel mentioned the request in an article dealing with investigations by German federal prosecutors and the Ministry of the Interior into the killings of Croats in exile by Yugoslav secret services during the 1970-1989 period. It said that 14 people were currently under investigation and that international warrants had been issued for the arrest of six persons, two of whom had served as intelligence officers.
The weekly then gave details of the sentence handed down by the Munich High District Court in July 2008 against Prates for his role in the 1983 murder of Djurekovic.
The sentence said that Tito “directed political murders abroad” until his death in 1980, and that “Yugoslav political officials ordered murders that were carried out in the Federal Republic of Germany.”
The Munich court named Perkovic and Zdravko Mustac, also a former Yugoslav secret service agent, as being involved in the murder of Stjepan Djurekovic. The German federal prosecution at the time announced more investigations in connection with the murders of 22 Croatian activists in exile in Germany.
Mustac, 71, has claimed that he had not been acquainted with orders for killings Croat emigrants, however, he has said that the Yugoslav authorities “had the right to energetically deal with “extremist Croats in exile”. (Hina)
__________
Not only should Tito’s medals be revoked posthumously (bravo citizens of Germany!) but a posthumous criminal indictment must also be considered and contemplated. Evidence points to the conclusion that it was on Tito’s orders that multitudes of Croatian émigrés who fled Yugoslavia after World War II – and managed to escape a brutal death in communist purges – were murdered and labelled extremists and all they did was not agree with communist regime and social and national agenda. So, in simple terms, the communists turned into terrorists who hunted down anti-communists worldwide calling them extremists! The sad thing is that there are still a number of former communists in high places who still think like this, who still justify political murder as righteous! They must not succeed in their endeavours of glorifying communism. Ina Vukic, Prof. (Zgb); B.A., M.A.Ps. (Syd)
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Ina, the sad thing here is that when Prates was put on trial, Croatia showed “no interest” in the trial and failing to see that Perkovic appeared at the trial. There are a number of ex UDBA agents living in Croatia today who have not been brought to justice for there crimes.
How to bring udba to trail when Croatia is being run by Titos sons Tudman,Mesic ,Josipovic.
@Braco P:
Save us the Paragitus fallacies.
Mesic, Perkovic, Boljkovac (who has since “come out of the closet” and joined SDSS in Karlovac) and Manolic were dangerous UDBa rats that Tudman neutralized by keeping those enemies close until it was time to throw them to the street – please see the Mesic-Manolic-Boljkovac attempted coup in 1994.
Their being kept in the dark is best summarized by Mesic’s public reaction to Bljesak – an operation he had no idea would take place.
To even suggest that Croatia could have diplomatically survived a “cleaning of the house” during or even after the war with the entire UDBa media apparatus generously funded by the Crown’s intelligence services, UN and unfortunately, even the US, is juvenile.
Tudman played all of his cards right, and won the war, and despite that war costing over 80 bn EUR in arming and 27.1 billion USD in physical damage, Tudman left the state with a well trained, disciplined Croatian soldier and or police officer at every border checkpoint, de facto HRHB, and 9 bn USD debt (the debt today is reaching 50 bn EUR).
Idiot Croatians voted in Mesic twice, and YUsipovic twice.
Tudman was pound for pound the greatest statesman in 20th Century Europe.
Therealamericro,I don’t know why it is so hard for you to accept the fact that Tudman was a partisan,communist,Let me throw Blaz Kraljevic in here and tell you He was also immigrant who came from Australia,but it didt stop another one Susak to get rid of him and many others,According to you Tudman kept friends close and enemies even closer and somehow he forgot to get rid of Perkovic.You claim Tudman threw him to the street and he even was an adviser to him and Susak,later to Mesic etc.At one point he had Manolic in charge of SIS so it seems your knowledge is limited,in one post you trash Ustashas and in very next you cry for them.Good friend of mine educated and smart ,a croat said that the biggest problem croats have is a gene for self distraction you guys have in you.It very hard to figure out who is not JUDA.
braco p judging from various comments you have made on this blog for various posts you seem to have fair knowledge of things but not enough and unfortunately all that is overshadowed by the hatred of Croats you seem to harbor and that seeps through and between the lines of your writing. Tudjman had not the best to choose from – most came out of communist rotten system to serve in Croatia and weeding occurred gradually and at times weeds were not plucked out for good reason. Mesic-Manolic-Boljkovac are the plague. And, as you know, getting rid of the plague is not easy… Mesic-Manolic-Boljkovac did hold important positions in those early days what else would one expect when a country is transitioning out of the one those persons held important positions in… Mesic-Manolic-Boljkovac were under communism closely associated with KOS, UDBA etc which was responsible for communist crimes
FINALLY!
So, who is it – part deleted by admin
Pavao – part of your comment was deleted: you cannot ask of others to provide what you yourself do not. Everyone has a right of comment without the requirement to provide details for public. The commentator’s details are private just as yours are.
Try visiting my blog. Maybe u will like it. Don’t forget to follow. Haha 🙂
Therealameriro,Let me repeat this one more time,Haage is using 100 recorded tapes,17000 transcripts of Tudman,Now if you have read any of it you would change your opinion of Tudman,Let me also mention couple more people nobody did yet,Ivo Banac,Ante Markovic,Stjepan Kljujic ,Ivo Komsic it sounds to me that everybody was against Tudman,Now why no dignitary didt show at his funeral tells you a lot about his greatness.One of the reasons and I believe the biggest why croats hate Mesic specially diaspora is Mesics little Ustashas pep talk he gave you in Australija and then took off with your many.You are right when you say he did not clean house but the reason for it is that 90%people around him didt like him,disagreed with him.I remember the war it was Tudman vs Mesic ,Banac,Paraga,Kljujic,Manolic,Markovic,Granic and everybody else.
Amir Pilipovic – when it comes to Mesic and dijaspora especially Australian YOU HAVE NOT GOT A CLUE! SO STOP PRETENDING YOU HAVE and you will not be privy to any information before everybody else either. As to Tudjman and the material you refer to no one needs to look or listen to it until the last case in the Hague is fully over, so please if you would not mind act in line with what you are presenting yourself as: fair person. It’s not finished yet so hold your eager horses until it is in the Hague.
Ina let me help with some things you either dont know or dont understand,In 2006 Croatia wanted to get involved in case of 6 saying it should participate since its working about Cro and Haage rejected cro request saying it cant participate since its about Cro.Now since none of the 6 is a lawyer nor any of the lawyers is representing Cro I have no idea how Cro will appeal JCE.You sound little scared of hearing Tudman in his own words disputing your posts ,all the evidence used in Haage is made public so I honestly dont know how its going to change in the future,The second point i would like to make is saying first judgement is not PRAVOMOCAN just remember Gotovina and Markac is silly when we all know that first judgment is PRAVOMOCAN (untill proven othrerwise) and that Gotovinas team has trashed Tudman and Susak second time around.not even to mention Rajic and Blaskic who accused Tudman of ordering crimes in Ahmici and being directly in charge of JOKERY unit.
Amir Pilipovic – I am not the judge nor the jury in this or any case there, but I can think and interpret a political decision when I come across one. I look at the individuals accused. For your enlightenment the first (trial) judgment is NOT PRAVOMOCAN ever that is why it’s called NEPRAVOMOCAN. The only PRAVOMOVCAN judgment is the one of the last Appeal, if there is an Appeal. As far as I know in 6 Croats from Herceg-Bosna there is an Appeal planned and so until the world knows what’s going to happen there it is still NEPRAVOMOCAN. For the readers who do not speak Croatian PRAVOMOCAN means VALID and NEPRAVOMOCAN means INVALID in legal terms used in the judiciary system in Europe. Well, perhaps no one represented Croatia because no one in their right mind expected the court to convict a dead person without prior proper notice serving and no availability of representation of the dead person. Croatia did apply to be Friend of Court in some cases but was denied, and certainly the “Estate” of the deceased Tudjman, Susak etc wasn’t given an inch of opportunity for at least a reply to charges … but ah, no charges, just conviction. I think my part of discussing this matter with you is hereby ended, I wish to wait for Appeal if there is going to be one, if not then I reckon it’d be at least 12 months before the full judgment is translated into English. The terrible thing of this case is also the fact that for the first time I believe in ICTY history the full judgment has been published in only one of the ICTY official languages – French. Anyone who can’;t speak French must wait at the mercy of whoever finds funds etc to translate 2,700 page full judgment. I’ll wait for that too
Ina ,if the trial was valid (which it was to 6)then entered judgment cant be invalid or nepravomocan,Its just the way it is,now its valid with there right to appeal(if it was invalid they would be home)and you can appeal on grounds of misuse of courts,justice(which they are not doing so far)or on grounds of disagreement (which they will do)All entered judgments are valid ,all of them,While the trial is going on its possible to ask for mistrial on the ground of a Judge was on drugs,drunk,asleep ,bribed etc but once court enters a judgment it becomes a valid ,You may be looking for a ward unwanted judgment or disliked.
Amir Pilipovic you misunderstand the judicial process – the “invalid/nepravomocan” means not final- that appeal process needs to yet be finalised and its up to every individual case whether ground for appeal are found, and every appeal process defines what those grounds can entail for an appeal. The difference between me and you is that I do not accept as final the judgment of Trial chamber because the defendants have a right to examine judgment and see if there are grounds for appeal. You on the other hand, don’t seem to worry about the right to an appeal. “valid” is just a dictionary translation of word “pravomocan” but in essence, in judicial terms it means “final” – I thought you would have picked that up since you seem to know so much. But still I suggest you look up and study court rule regarding ground of appeal – the grounds of “disagreement” are not subjective and never will be. I’m not looking for any word, I just want to give the judicial process the benefit of completion. Blaskic, whom you have mentioned, received 45 years imprisonment through Trial judgment and then this was commuted to 9 years upon Appeal, which found that command responsibility was non-existent…
Ina saying judgment is not final is misleading people or selling fog,we all know meaning of word invalid.For example in Australia where you live invalid driver licence really means you cant legally operate motor vehicle.We also know that in Common Wealth Law all entered judgment are valid,Would not it be kind a stupid for six or for that matter me or you to appeal invalid judgment,i mean it really makes know sence,Blaskic was promised help (witnesses,financial help)by Tudman but none of it made it to Haage,so after getting 45 years He felt betrayed and sold out by Tudman and went ahead to make a deal with prosecutor,After that his lawyer Anto Nobilo has made a claim that Tudman personally has ordered Ahmici massacre and that Tudman was personally in charge of HVO(jokery)a unit that did a massacre,Blascic was a witness to that theory and they even provided documents as proof,I hope that you now know how his sentence went from 45 to 9 years,He is juda .So I guess right word is final.
Amir Pilipovic, I’ll say this only once more: the reason why due process exists in court system (trial + appeal) is because if there is an inkling of ground for appeal the trial judgment is not final until appeal either overturns the trial judgment or upholds it. Of course one can talk of trial judgment as as valid but that validity is only temporary, pending appeal and it becomes final/ fully valid if appeal upholds it. Nothing would surprise me from Anto Nobilo – I have yet to come across any opportunity given to Tudjman (dead or alive) to defend himself from accusations in that court. Even documents deserve defence but not according to you.
Miso Sorbel,There are apparently 4 million croats living in diaspora and your claim is that “pizza man “is the best Tudman had to pick,Now Perkovic was in cro government advising Tudman,Mesic and Josipovic ,so saying today he is bad,juda is pretty much a thing you accuse above mentioned people of doing.All of them have one thing in common and its dislike of Ustashas and all agreed they have to get rid of them so they went on killing spree,Now we have you and people like you to pick them from left and right and get dazed and confused doing it.In one post you guys hate Ustashas and in another you cry for them,in one you make them a cro hero and in next a juda.While doing it Spegelj.Markovic,Banac and many others get a free pass from you.Where all of them against Tudman because they were udba members ,judas or was Tudman wrong.
braco p, please keep your insults about people’s professions to yourself. To all fair people pizza man, fish and hips shop man, builder’s labourer, doctor, teacher all engage in honourable professions. This comment of yours is utterly pathetic.
Well Ina here you go again ,blaming me for croats calling Susak a “pizza man”Why don’t you use google sometimes or wiki because it even explains it there,just google Gojko Susak and find out that he was pizza man in Canada and its how he got his nickname.Besides check his level of eduation when you do so,ask yourself if there is another country where you go from pizza to minister of defense.
braco p – of course I blame you – not for calling him a pizza man but for suggesting that business or trades people have no value as far as politics are concerned. The fact that you accept as telling of his value the wiki description of him (and God knows who wrote that wiki article) is sort of like monkey see monkey do. And that’s because in this case you do not like the man, obviously. You don’t have to like a person but if you want to be credible then you do not need to infer that just because someone ran a pizza business that person has no adequate intelligence or skill for a ministerial position. Yes I can think of quite a few tradesmen or factory workers who had become leading politicians. Lech Walesa of Poland’s Solidarity was an electrician, Tito was labourer and then trade … at least Susak studied mathematics at university before he fled Yugoslavia – even if he did not graduate due to fleeing communism the fact that he enrolled in mathematics studies tells you that he was no unintelligent man.
…you have made yourself a part of Tudman greatness or stupidity ,depends on how people looks at Tudman,I strongly believe and support an uneducated pizza man in his quest of becoming a manager,ceo at pizza parlor or even chain but will never support his guest of being any Minister.Now you should of used Tito on theory of why pizza man,semi-truck drivers and electricians should never be any Minister.The way wiki works is really simple ,its always open to a change,meaning you can go and dispute all things written you may not lika,otherwise you take it as the fact.I know as well as you do that you believe that pizza man,semi-truck driver or plumber even electrician would not be able to take your job so if you use same rule,regulation its easy to understand why exactly they should never be Ministers.
Ina the word we should use is PRVOSTUPANJSKA,not invalid.Its very hard to defend Tudman since he was double,sometimes triple tape-recorded,For example evidence provided by Nobilo has unknown origins,which means that somebody in Tudmans close circles used to secretly tape him for UDBA,CIA OR MI5.And that somebody for some reason has provided evidence vs 6,Sad part is that you croats hate Mesic,blame him for everything while that somebody is still taping Josipovic i guess.
Amir Pilipovic – tapes of unknown origins and tapes that have not undergone rigorous forensic examination as to possible tampering etc can be what they are. I have similar experience in Australia where during court proceedings parties produced tape of person allegedly something which court accepted but at insistence of defendant the tape was during appeal forensically found to have been doctored. I am not aware of tape verification procedures there etc but still Tudjman or his “estate” after his death have not been given the opportunity to respond or defend. And what kind of court accepts tapes from unknown source is beyond me. You are wrong and you generalise utterly unfairly – Croats do not hate Mesic, he has many “fans” and with good reason I am not one of those, there are those who have experienced first hand his improper (to use a mild word) dealings and political turns and if they want him to answer for allegations before a proper body that is their right without being accused of hatred.
QUOTE: Therealamericro,I don’t know why it is so hard for you to accept the fact that Tudman was a partisan,communist,Let me throw Blaz Kraljevic in here and tell you He was also immigrant who came from Australia,but it didt stop another one Susak to get rid of him and many others,According to you Tudman kept friends close and enemies even closer and somehow he forgot to get rid of Perkovic.” ENDQUOTE
Tudman was from a HSS family that was part of HSS’s left wing. It is no surprise that he ended up in the Partisans, as most leftists did.
Leftists joined the Partisans in Istra, Kvarner, the Islands and Parts of Dalmatia, as did Conservative Catholics from all of the aforementioned places due to the genocidal Italian fascist occupation / genocidal fascist Chetnik aggression that Pavelic was inept at defeating.
Tudman’s historical works and the fact that he was a dissident long before it became popular (see Mesic, who joined the Proljece AFTER he denounced it and AFTER it became a mass movement).
The simple fact is that you did not respond to a single argument / fact I put forth. You are throwing red herrings and ignoring the counter-arguments that demolish your pitiful premises.
In terms of the “20th Bugojanac,” who went by that title for years in Australia and whom Croats called the “20th Bugojanac” and whom the UDBa mysteriously never tried to assassinate, nor against whom did the “SFRJ” government ever ask to have extradicted (despite assassinating and calling for the extradition of free thinkers / political activists, let alone people who were engaged in a military-style plot to overthrow the diseased state) who was picked up mysteriously for tax charges just about as he was leaving allegedly for Austria, who was for a Croatia to the River Drina but whom Sarajevo still loves and reveres, who decided that the imbecile who lost 70% of BiH without as much a shot fired because the JNA would “defend the people” was, along with his circle of UDBa / KOS / JNA officers who waged genocidal aggression against Croats (and Croats of BiH see Ravno, occupation of Mostar) in Croatia and in BiH all of 1991, the leaders BiH Croats, who saved both themselves and Bosniaks from physical extermination at the hands of the Serbs by organizing HZHB and the HVO, I would say his story stinks to the high heavens, especially coupled with the post-mortem fetishist cult that Bosniak ultranationalists, AVNOJ BiH Titoist unitarists and Bosniak Islamists have created for him.
First off, it is impossible for an avowed Ustasa to be for a BiH, as BiH to the Ustase was nothing more than a part of Croatia, and divided up into smaller administrative zones.
Second, that a “big Croat” like Kraljevic R-E-J-E-C-T-E-D the fact that Croatia had a legally, majority voter elected president (whom Kraljevic and Paraga were calling to be overthown by force if necessary) and that the Croats of BiH chose their own political leaders with a 95% + margin (HDZ BiH / HZHB), and joined the HVO and that the HOS was nothing without the HVO but deserved to be subordinated under BiH Poglavnik Kraljevic is an exercise of illogical acrobatics.
Ustase aren’t for BiH, and Ustase don’t scream that JNA war criminals like Hadzihasanovic, Pasalic, Delic and others are going to defend Croats when a) They attacked and or supported attacks of Croats in 1991 in Croatia and BiH b) They lost 70% of BiH without as much as a shot fired in defense.
That Perkovic survived the purges is no surprise, the guy was a professional operative and likely convinced Tudman that he was loyal as he did not side with the Mesic-Manolic-Boljkovac coup attempt.
So Tudman made a single mistake – he didn’t purge Perkovic. Woopie.
What is disingenuous is that, while you carp about Tudman being a Partisan and former Communist and not purging Perkovic, you look over the fact that a) All of the UDBasi and KOSovci save Perkovic were purged from Croatia’s civilian / military intelligence establishment following their neutralization and being used and abused by Tudman until the time was right to kick them to the street b) UDBa was not a problem in Croatia save the media which is free and cannot be regulated anyway, until 2000 when that treasonous animal Mesic was elected under very questionable circumstance c) Izetbegovic’s entire intelligence apparatus and military command was staffed by a Who’s Who of UDBa and KOS operatives and JNA officers and general officers all of whom fought against Croatia to a man in 1991 and all of whom were thwarting the HVO from arming and from saving the Croatian and Bosniak people of BiH from physical extermination.
QUOTE: “You claim Tudman threw him to the street and he even was an adviser to him and Susak,later to Mesic etc.ENDQUOTE
Everyone but Perkovic was thrown to the street. Once Mesic came to power every UDBa and KOS animal was rehabilitated and most re-employed while the Croatians who defeated them and their army (JNA) were fired.
So, being that Perkovic is negative, as is UDBa and KOS, I take it that you disagree with UDBas Mesic’s line regarding Hercegbosna which is, mysteriously, the same as UDBa operative Mirko Klarin and Politika’s fantasy narrative created to diflect Serbia’s responsibility for a) Planning b) Starting c) Continuing the wars and committing well over 90% of the attrocities in Croatia and BiH?
QUOTE: “At one point he had Manolic in charge of SIS so it seems your knowledge is limited, in one post you trash Ustashas and in very next you cry for them. ENDQUOTE
You again miss the point. Manolic, like Mesic, was in a position and was fed nothing.
They were put in senior positions and provided garbage. Their positions were to neutralize them. Neither had ANY idea that Bljesak would take place despite being in their positions, which is why they lied like Strbac and called Bljesak “ethnic cleansing” as part of a “dogovoren rat” (see UDBas Mirko Klarin). Again, you miss the fact that those two animals were thrown to the street, where they belonged / belong, once the time was ripe and their conspiracy in Operation Weisbaden was exposed and they tried to stage a coup within the party.
Trash Ustasas and cry for them? That’s the Bosniak m.o. – brag about ethnically cleansing over 170,000 Croats in Central Bosnia / N. Hercegovina / E. Mostar, then engage in cult of personality worship over declared Ustasa and Croatia-to-the-Drina advocate Blaz Kraljevic.
QUOTE: Good friend of mine educated and smart ,a croat said that the biggest problem croats have is a gene for self distraction you guys have in you.It very hard to figure out who is not JUDA.” ENDQUOTE
Everyone knows that Mesic, Manolic, Boljkovac and their entire clique that was fired in 1994 were and remain Judas.
The problem is that Bosniaks don’t understand that the degenerates that the imbecile Izetbegovic surrounded himself with were to a man KOS, UDBa, JNA fanatics, or Islamofanatics, with one or two Yugoslavicist token “Croats” who were there for decoration.
Clean up your own house before you tell your neighbor to.
FYI, with Perkovic’s immenent extradition, the UDBa house of cards seems to be a crumbling in Croatia ; – )
So you first made a claim how Tudman was so smart to throw Perkovic under the bus and now you are saying well he forgot to do so,Tudman was never elected president of BiH ,and first man of hdz,croats in BiH was Stjepan Kljujic,So you may check your facts before posting any comments,even making your mind would help you greatly.Have you ever heard of Martin Spegelj,Ivo Banac,Letica,Ante Markovic,Granic etc ,if you didt its good because you would put them all on your UDBA list.Perkovic was personal adviser to Tudman,Susak later to Mesic and to Josipovic .Mesic was two terms president of Croatia and you r making a claim how Tudman threw them on the street.Also study HRHB ,independent and a place where only croats can hold power,Manolic was a head of SIS or to make it easier for you Cro UDBA so your idea that Tudman kept them in dark is actually to funny because they taped Tudman,Susak team and delivered it all to Haage which means they knew at same moment where Tudmans mind was,Knez,Siber,Kljujic,Ivo Komsic,Zeljko Komsic,Dragan Vikic,Zoran Cegar and many others are all croats Izetbegovic had around himself and many even went to Haage to defend him.not because they are JUDAS,UDBA or less croats but because they are way more honest then you.In transcripts in Haage Tudman among other things even explains in conversation with Skegro how he ripped you croats ,they stole one billion $.But I guess you like many others don’t want Saint Franjo to tell you via his own recorded tape the truth.
braco p – you will not succeed in your peddling of lies spun by those who started in 1992 to dig Tudjman’s political grave – it was started by Mesic, Manolic et al. If you search the Croatian press archives from February 1994 you will find statements from Tudjman when he said that he received regular warnings of Mesic & co covert operations against him especially from the diaspora but he did not believe them until he himself proved Mesic a liar. He booted them out in 1994 around April. But before that he kept them in the dark on many things and that is a fact. I know this to be a fact and you will have the pleasure – probably displeasure – when these reports to Tudjman become public. Tudjman ripped us of nothing, not a cent – you forget that people in diaspora who were very involved in raising funds still hold documentation and wouldn’t it be a sad day for you when you discover it was not Tudjman who ripped us of but those who worked against him, constructed “evidence” of all sorts. Yes Tudjman was and is a Saint when compared to them and always will be. Forget about alleging that we are dishonest – you can take that right back where it belongs. You might ask well why has that evidence not come out yet – it has partially but not wholly because with the mindset similar to yours lingering on there really is no use – so a time will come. Mesic was president from 2000, after Tudjman’s death but he set his eyes on that position in 1992! That should tell you something at least.
QUOTE: Therealameriro,Let me repeat this one more time,Haage is using 100 recorded tapes,17000 transcripts of Tudman,Now if you have read any of it you would change your opinion of Tudman,Let me also mention couple more people nobody did yet,Ivo Banac,Ante Markovic,Stjepan Kljujic ,Ivo Komsic it sounds to me that everybody was against Tudman,Now why no dignitary didt show at his funeral tells you a lot about his greatness.One of the reasons and I believe the biggest why croats hate Mesic specially diaspora is Mesics little Ustashas pep talk he gave you in Australija and then took off with your many.You are right when you say he did not clean house but the reason for it is that 90%people around him didt like him,disagreed with him.I remember the war it was Tudman vs Mesic ,Banac,Paraga,Kljujic,Manolic,Markovic,Granic and everybody else.QUOTE
The problem with your “argument” Amir is that hearsay and conjecture by highly questionable individuals with even more questionable motives and personal / professional histories does not hold up in the court of law outside of the farce at the ICTY which was created to whitewash Serbia’s guilt and the guilt of those international diplomats and governments that hysterically backed its multiple joint genocidal war criminal enterprises.
Quotes entirely out of context, the negation of relevant evidence, the negation of chronological order of events / the order of battle, etc., do not hold up in any court save the political show court the ICTY.
In terms of the farcial Prlic et. al. ruling:
If Croatia and Croatians in B&H hatched and oversaw a plan to subjugate and or destroy Bosniaks in B&H, why did all B&H Croats vote for BiH independence? Why was Croatia the first nation to recognize BiH, and why was the first foreign ambassador to B&H from Croatia? Why did Croats take in over 150,000 Muslim refugees into HZHB in the Spring and Summer of 1992 and another 500,000 Muslims in Croatia that same year, and house, feed, and cloth them and then arm and train their men on the territory of HZHB and Croatia to fight the JNA-VRS in coordination with the HVO as ABiH members and or as members of the HVO?
Why did the HVO fight the JNA-VRS to a standstill and start kicking them back off of 85% of the territory of what is the Federation today in the Spring and Summer of 1992 (with the HVO taking in over 150,000 Muslim refugees into the HZHB and feeding them, sheltering them, clothing them and arming and training the Bosniak males of military age) if Tudman “dealt” Bosnia with Milosevic – the claim first made by none other than Vojislav Seselj (he was lamenting that Milosevic wasn’t interested with Serbian borders on the ouskirts of Zagreb) – and repeated by a host of people who were never at Karadjordjevo (the illogic of the Karadjordjevo myth being the war in Croatia itself, as well as the HVO’s March 1992-Nov 1995 fight against the JNA-VRS).
Or Croatia allow and facilitate the formation of two of the ABiH’s 7 Corps on the territory of the Republic of Croatia? Or the 2nd Corps having a logistical center on Ilica 39 in Zagreb – the entire duration of the war, including during the ABiH-HVO conflict? Or the ABiH recieving arms the duration of the war – including the duration of the ABiH-HVO conflict?
How can Croatia or the Croatian Army have been an “aggressor” in BiH when the only successful combined arms operations launched against the so-called JNA / VRS were a) Allowed by the signed agreements between Sarajevo and Zagreb b) Planned, led, supplied (both the HVO and ABiH), partially staffed and entirely overseen by the HV; namely, Operations Lipanjske Zore (1992), Zima 94, Skok 1, Skok 2, and Maestral,?
If Croats accepting Cutliero’s peace plan and the VOPP is “dividing Bosnia,” why aren’t Vance and Owen on trial?
The simple truth is that the actual, entire chronological order of
events and elementary logic and reason demolish the entire prosecution case and ruling, which was and remains a violent gang rape of truth and reason.
HZHB was formed the day Vukovar fell in December 1991, because Sarajevo was unwilling to do anything to a) Thwart Serbia’s genocidal aggression against Croatia which was being waged from and supplied over the territory of B&H, not even talking military terms here, but even making a public verbal protest b) Do anything to organize ANY defense from the JNA which was openly arming SDS paramilitaries by December 1991 for over two years, with Izetbegovic even stating that the JNA would “defend Bosnia” and that it was “our army” even AFTER the brutal JNA-Chetnik paramilitary massacre of dozens of Croatian civilians in O C T O B E R 1991 in Ravno, B&H, after which Izetbegovic stated “To nije nas rat” / “That is not our war,” despite the Croatians in Ravno being citizens of the state he was President of and all voting for him.
The HVO, thanks to Croatia and the HV assistance, saved B&H and Bosniaks from the fate of Eastern Bosnia and Srebrenica.
The HVO stopped the JNA-VRS on 85% of the territory of B&H in the Spring and Summer of 1992 while, outside of Sarajevo, 95% of Bosniak areas in Eastern and Western Bosnia fell without as much a shot fired by Alija’s TO and ABiH because of their lack of organization and unwillingness to open their eyes to the fact that Milosevic Serbianized the JNA way back in 1988.
The only successful large-scale combined arms operation in 1992 against the JNA-VRS was Operacija Lipanjske Zore / Operation June Dawn, which was an HV-HVO operation under the command of WWII Partisan fighter, Croatian General Janko Bobetko as Zagreb and Sarajevo had signed a military cooperation agreement ALLOWING for HV units to operate in B&H.
Unfortunately the cabal of mostly Sandzak-born Bosniak JNA and JNA Counterintelligence (KOS) officers who fought against Croatia in 1991 – Halilovic, Hadzihasanovic, Kubura and the rest of the JNA / KOS generals and operatives Izetbegovic surrounded himself with, convinced that clueless Islamist that it was better to carve out a Bosniak state and attack the Croats who they miscalculatingly thought would be the path of least resistance for more Muslim Bosniak living space – with the assistance of Islamist terrorists Izetbegovic called to help fight against the wishes of Croats and every sane Bosniak Muslim.
The result of Bosniak aggression was the Muslim-Croat civil war, and over 170,000 Croats ethnically cleansed at gunpoint in Central Bosnia, North Herzegovina, and East Mostar and barred from returning (post-war the return has been thwarted institutionally by mountains of paperwork, and of course by not-so sporadic terrorist violence and ritual murders) the internment of 14,444 Croats (only 4,000 of them HVO POWs captured by the ABiH and jihadi terrorists, the rest civilians) in 331 ABiH concentration camps, of which over 600 murdered in ABiH custody, and a total of 1,051 Croatian civilian deaths, including 121 children.
The charade is obvious, and it is over.
The ICTY was created to equate guilt, namely, whitewash Serbia’s guilt for a) Pre-planning the wars, in particular, their genocidal conduct outlined in the Rampart (RAM) Plan which Serbian Yugoslav People’s Army officers authored that ordered the systematic targeting of civilians b) Instigating, coordinating and continuing the wars and c) Committing well over 90% of all attrocities, in Croatia, B&H and Kosovo d) Serbia’s wars having support of over 90% of Serbian voters.
Stanisic and Simatovic were let off and Prlic et. al. railroaded because the UN itself aided and abetted Milosevic by imposing the immoral arms embargo, and UN officials’ chummy relations with Serb leaders and paramilitaries in Croatia and B&H.
The UN, UK, France, Netherlands and Sweden were lobbying for a consolidation of the maximal extended borders for Serbia the duration of the conflict, demanding Croat and Bosniak capitulation repeatedly at every farcial peace talk initiative, until the HV / HVO crushed the VRSK and VRS in the summer and early fall of 1995.
The ICTY was and remains a means for the UN itself, UK,
France, Netherlands and Sweden to wash their hands of the oceans of blood their top diplomats facilited Milosevic to spill.
Who stopped Milosevic and forced him to sue for peace after his forces were crushed in engagement after engagement winter 1994 through the fall of 1995?
Franjo Tudman, the HV, HVO and HZHB/HRHB leadership.
Which led to Wednesday’s irrational, illogical, contradictory punishment for Tudman, Susak, Bobetko, and the HV and HVO preventing Bihac from making Srebrenica look like an episode of Captain Kangaroo, and forcing Milosevic to sue for peace in borders that were too small for Milosevic’s Serbia (and its facilitators in the foreign policy centers of the UK, France, Netherlands and Sweden).
The ICTY acquittal of Stanisic and Simatovic has effectively sentenced B&H to war in the near future.
In terms of Praljak, Prlic et. al. and their ruling, I highly suggest all readers of Mr. Parish’s article read Lt. Col. Dr. Charles Reginald Schrader’s book The Muslim-Croat Civil War in Central Bosnia 1992-1995: http://www.amazon.com/The-Muslim-Croat-Civil-Central-Bosnia/dp/1585442615/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1369821066&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Muslim+Croat+Civil+War.
Lt. Col. Dr. C.R. Schrader taught as a professor of military history at West Point and the US Army War college – he was commissioned to do a study by the ICTY for the Blaskic trial – being that his findings demolished the entire case of Blaskic, it was, as in the Prlic et. al. case for all of the same reasons, barred from being entered into evidence and he barred from being allowed in as a witness.
The bottom line is that the ruling against Prlic et. al. is a farce – factually inaccurate, based off of hearsay, conjecture, contradictory verbal gymnastics, and the cherry picking of events out of chronological order (skipping between months, decades and even centuries) ignoring all of the preceding events and circumstances, as well as end results.
Take, for instance, the nature of the conflict itself.
The HVO was outnumbered 7 to 1 in Central Bosnia, 3 to 1 in and roughly 1 to 1 in Mostar and W Herzegovina – due to the fact that, despite the HVO-led and mostly manned Posavina Corridor defense meaning the end of Western RS and the “Krajina”, Izetbegovic was the spring, summer and fall of 1992 sending tens of thousands of ABiH troops and reinforcements to already (nearly to a location, HVO-liberated) liberated areas instead of the life-and-death corridor for W RS and “Krajina,” Posavina, where they were needed.
To even suggest that the HVO would have the motive and above all, means to attack the ABiH is an exercise of criminal insanity.
That Islamist terrorist volunteers that Izetbegovic called against the wishes of every Croat and every sane Bosniak were harassing Croats in Central Bosnia, and radicalizing local Bosniaks with their religious hate speech and propaganda, long before open fighting took place, was entirely ignored.
As was the fact that the dates cited by the prosecution of “HVO attacks” were actually HVO c-o-u-n-t-e-r — a-t-t-a-c-k-s from preceding ABiH attacks against them.
Prozor, for instance, first saw the ABiH attack the HVO in town and cleanse the local Croat residents as the ABiH, unlike the HVO, refused to respect the Tudman-Izetbegovic agreement that mandated that all HVO units in majority Bosniak areas subordinate themselves to the command of the ABiH and all ABiH units in areas with a Croat majority do the same.
Not to even mention the role of radical Islam and all of the attacks against Croats in Central Bosnia, North Herzegovina and East Mostar during the conflict – for which a total of 6 years was meted out in prison to Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0NGcjcPUN0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSj6ugWhQSA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu03YS8ayCI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqKAqSVEQlI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSj6ugWhQSA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLZeZFqXE7U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfwQNJb0r1I
The Prosecution’s indictment and the courts’ ruling were and remain political ones with no basis on law (two of the “judges” are not actual judges in real life nor qualified to be), on the actual chronology of events, or the totality of the evidence.
The entire case against Prlic et. al. hangs on hearsay and conjecture (the Ashdown napkin in which Tudman drew the borders of what is now the Federation of B&H and theKaradjordjevo myth that is debunked by the war in Croatia itself and the HVO’s March 1992-Nov 1995 fight against the JNA-VRS), as well as willfull ignorance.
Namely, the judgement ruled that the first clash between Croats and Bosniaks took place on Oct. 23 in Prozor, when “the HVO attacked the town of Prozor and its surroundings.”
What is missing is the fact that:
a) The HVO “attack” was actually a counter-attack after the ABiH murdered four HVO members during what was supposed to be a relief in place on post in the village of Dobrasin, but was actually an ambush that was to set the stage for the larger TO/ABiH attack to push Croatian civilians and soldiers alike out of Prozor;
b) The first act of violence took place on Radusa mountain where four HVO soldiers were killed by their Army of B&H “allies” while doing a leaders reconnaissance on JNA-VRS forward positions in an ambush from behind, on June 13, 1992;
c) On Oct. 1-5 1992 skirmishes break between Croatians and Muslims and foreign Islamist militants in the municipality of Novi Travnik, in the villages of Senkovci, Sinokos and Donje Pecine, Opara, as well as in the city of Novi Travnik. The Army of B&H escalated its use of force and engaged in excessive and indiscriminate artillery against the villages, injuring several civilians, and launched an artillery and mortar assault that was followed by infantry assault against the HVO command post and the HVO Field Hospital in Travnik, the latter destroyed. Two nearby apartment buildings inhabited by Croats were set on fire by Army of B&H and foreign Islamists and frenzied local civilians after they kicked out the residents at gunpoint.
d) The fighting on Oct. 23 in Prozor was planned on Oct. 21, at the meeting of the “Headquarters of territorial defense forces of Prozor municipality,” where commanders of Muslim forces from neighboring municipalities met at the house of Zibo Korman in the village of Blace (municipality Rama-Prozor). The chairperson Mustafa Hero, the commander of Muslim forces in Prozor said, and this is according to the meeting minutes taken by Alija Emric, that on Friday, October 23rd 1992 “the fight will start” and that at the end of it “The Muslims will call the shots in the city”, and that in “the fight” they would be helped by Bosniak Muslim reinforcements from Gornji Vakuf (around 1000 fighters) and Konjic (around 500 men).
This means that contrary to the Prosecution claims and judgement allegations, Bosniak fighters attacked the Croats in Dobrasin and in Prozor town itself, which they did, expelling the Croat civilans briefly, and the Croats were forced to counter-attack, which they did.
The reason Hero and his cohorts planned the attack was because they and the ABiH in general rejected the signed agreement between Tudman and Izetbegovic that subordinated ABiH units in Croatian majority areas to the command structure of the HVO and HVO units in Bosniak majority areas to the command structure of the ABiH.
The second most glaring factually innacurate premise is what the judgement ruled as the actual start of open conflict. It claims the “first clashes between the HVO and the ABiH took place on 11 and 12 January 1993 in the Municipality of Gornji Vakuf. On 16 January 1993, pursuant to an order issued the previous day, the Main Staff of the HVO demanded that the ABiH in Gornji Vakuf subordinate its troops to the HVO. The ABiH rejected this demand.”
What was ignored by the Prosecution, and the Judges (well, the Judge and the two “judges”) is that between January 8-10, 1993, one hundred Croats were ethnically cleansed from Muslim-majority sections of Gornji Vakuf by ABiH members and civilians alike.
To summarize – the entire premise of the case is based on a false premise, namely, the “convenient” ommission of very relevant preceding events that demolish the entire premise of Prosecution indictment and the subsequent judgement.
The fact is that without Franjo Tudman, Bosniaks would either all have been, along with all B&H Croats, physically exterminated or living in refugee centers in Croatia (or what was left of it) or the West.
Bosniaks should build a giant, 20 meter golden statue of Tudman in Sarajevo (or name the airport after Him and put the 20 meter golden statue of him at the main entrance), and He should have a square in every Bosniak majority city, town and village in B&H because without Tudman, every Bosniak in B&H would have shared the same fate as Bosniaks in Bijeljina, Foca and Srebrenica – death or life as a refugee in a foreign country.
Its time for you to move from HZHB to HRHB my friend,you are not going to fool me but fellow croats,Now you should ask one of these war criminals Rajic,Tuti,Kordic,Blaskic,Cerkez etc,They can provide very good info on what has happened in BiH.Everybody around Izetbegovic was a member of Udba,SIS,KOS and yet all recorded tapes are about Tudman,Dont you see how stupid your argument is.
Amir Pilipovic – truth is not a stupid argument
Truth is never stupid Amir Pilipovic, it just takes a long time to surface, regretfully
Correction, HZHB took in 220,000 Bosniak refugees May-December 1992, which, ike all of the facts put forth above, blows the entire prosecution premise out of the water because you don’t take in people you want to “ethnically cleanse.”
I love the primitive Yugoslav nationalist-socialist mentality.
Susak is a “Pizza man” to them because he created a multi-million dollar franchise and retired early.
Multi-million dollar franchises in every normal country is something to congratulate, only in primitive Yugoslav nationalist socialist Yugoslavia and in the empty minds of primitive Yugoslav nationalist socialist nostalgics is business success something to be mocked.
So primitive, so degenerate, so stupid that it shouldn’t even be dignified with a response but I am sorry, I just cannot help myself.
therealamericro – my sentiments exactly.
I guess rest of the world must be stuid,primitive and rasist since i dont know of any other country in the world where uneducated pizza man has became a Minister of Defence,Normaly in western or democratic countries one has to be at least educated to hold that post,Croatia must be very special .
Amir Pilipovic – I’d suggest then you get hold of an encyclopedia of politicians, ministers, congressmen, parliamentarians etc of the Western world since 1990 or even before and look up their biographies because anything I or other commentators say to you on this matter simply does not satisfy you.
I suggest Amir Pilipovic you get hold of an encyclopedia or something like it with biographies of ministers, congressmen, parliamentarians since 1990 at least of the western democracies
Well I did and could not find any uneducated Ministers of Defence,why dont you help me out naming one.
Amir Pilipovic – in your search did you by any chance discover that Susak studied mathematics and physics in Rijeka (a faculty with the highest entry requirement even today) and in early 1970’s he studied management, information and communications at university of Ottawa? I will not do search for you because you are quick to assume things about someone you obviously do not like, throw objectiveness of truth away in order to support your pathetic views. But even if he had not studied anything at any university he created a business empire from scratch in a foreign country where he settled after fleeing communism. That to any intelligent person is a tell tale sign of great intelligence and hard work – characteristics most welcome in any government office of the western world.
Only an idiot or an imbecile would label a successful multi-million dollar franchise creator and owner as a “Pizza Man.”
Yes, I am saying that every politician and or “journalist” who labelled Susak with that ad hominem is an idiot or imbecil, or idiotic imbecile.
I take it you missed the memo regarding Mr. Susak’s brilliant multi-million dollar franchise and Croatia successfully arming and defeating the genocidal JNA-VRSK-VRS, knocking them down to 37% of BiH territory until the UK was threatening to bomb Croatian forward units and NATO dropped ordinance near Croatian forces advancing on Trebinje and 5 km from Banja Luka, after which “brilliant” and “educated strategerist” Izetbegovic cried to Holebrook and Milosevic and offered HVO-liberated the Republika Srpska pocket of today that the HVO and HVO alone liberated from the VRS (Mrkonjic Grad / Sipovo pocket), 11% of BiH, back to Karadzic and Milosevic, which Holebrook generously forced Tudman to do, threatening no peaceful reintegration of Vukovar-Podunavlje, for a few extra kilometers width for the Sarajevo-Goradze road.
You see Amir, if you are a successful multi-million dollar franchise creator / owner that is named Minister of Defense and if you arm a disarmed country and win an unfair war with the entire international community and media lobbying for you to lose against an enemy 3x stronger than you, then you are not a “pizza man,” you are a multimillionare successful businessman that achieved all of your tactical and strategic objectives, making you very, very smart ; – )
therealamericro – besides creating a multi-million dollar empire in Canada, which apparently means nothing of note for commentators Amir Pilipovic and braco p Susak also studied mathematics and physics at Rijeka before he fled communist Yugoslavia (and only the brightest of students could even enroll into such studies even today) in early 1970’s he studied management, information and communication at university of Ottowa. That still might not be enough for these commentators who seem to be under the illusion that a high ranking government minister must have at least a PhD :). Lopts of doctors in high politics in Croatia and BiH these days, but their output is worse than that of a primary school pupil.
Well Amir Pilipovic, you obviously haven’t bothered to even look at an “encyclopedia” of ministerial biographies around the world nor has braco p. So to end your misery, sorry if it disagrees with you, here are a couple of names of government leaders around about the time Gojko Susak became minister of defense of Croatia: Yitzhak Shamir – Israel Prime Minister 1986 – 1992 etc – cut short his studies in Poland as he left the country; Pierre Joxe – minister of defense France 1991/1993 – had only education with the national school of public administration which prepared people for public office; Pierre Bérégovoy – a Metal worker (just like Tito, really) – French prime minister 1992/1993 – I could go on and list a few more but what’s the use really – one cannot fight hatred with truth. In case you forgot in the real world demonstrated success in a profession (and business is a profession) is known to be assessed as equivalent to tertiary qualification but hey such realities and accepted practices may not be known so widely but they are true nevertheless
Ina,If Tudman was alive he would be in Haage now together with 6,they have to much evidence against him,( all the tapes ,transcripts and witnesses)I mean he was even trying to annex BiH after the war,calling dayton agreement a joke,He said “lets make a deal with serbs to annex it,nobody believes in dayton and multi-national BiH,In transcript provided by Nobilo Minister of defense tell him Mr president Prlic just received a call from Haage,T,what for M,to be a witness at Blaskics trial ,then Tudman replied “He can go only if he will never mention our involvement in Ahmici”In 1991 He was talking about annexing it,Then about Gornji Vakuf,Mostar etc saying to Susak,Bobetko and Generals,”We cant get compromised in BiH politically nor militarily)I mean they have it all.
Amir Pilipovic – this is the last comment on this matter I will reply to or allow because it is building up as personal attack on persons especially Tudjman. This blog is not the judge or jury, which you are trying to be. I will leave it to the due process and court to resolve. As we have seen in the past appeals have overturned trial judgments because convictions were not beyond reasonable doubt. You want things to end in a certain way so this blog will not be a vessel for your bits and pieces, many of which are hearsay and wishful thinking that seems to have no end. But Tudjman was at the Hague – he was convicted posthumously in case of 6 Croats from Herceg-Bosna without the right and the benefit to defend (and there are plenty of witnesses who would have testified to his defence – more credible I dare say than Nobilo etc – but regretfully ICTY prosecution didn’t bother to add dead people to the list of accused – they just added them to the convicted).
Well i guess you cant handle the truth and its way easier to Defend him after the fact on internet,youtube and fb,it must be much chipper way.
Amir Pilipovic – I can handle the truth, it’s the lies I cannot. There’s nothing “chipper” or cheaper about the internet, youtube or fb because they all occupy time and time is precious to all. Everyone deserves a defence especially those who are wrongly vilified.It’s the hardest job and the hardest defence of all to try and clear the mud plastered against someone through hearsay and strategic lies – no sir, nothing cheaper about that – the toll is much greater than in any other kind of defense.
Amir Pilipovic – I for one can handle the truth, it’s the lies that I cannot handle without a fight against them
Sure you cant,I guess its a reason why you are waiting for full report knowing that recorded tapes and transcripts dont come in full report,wondering what you will tell us when you get it in english,I find it so cute that none of you truth tellers wants to talk about HRHB(independent,only croats can hold power),you guys always forget to answer it,The biggest truth you said to date is “Alija called mujahedeens up”and to make sure it was the truth you provided no evidence of it when asked.
Amir Pilipovic – I believe I have spoken of HRHB (Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna) in one or two of my earlier posts – but be your attention as it may, I believe that HRHB political entity was the only way to protect Bosnian Croatian interests at the time especially when you consider that only Izetbegovic (Muslim) and Karadzic (Serb) were the only ones initially traveling abroad for international negotiations at the beginning and Croatian voice was not being heard and it would have been completely obliterated if that were not the case. Amir I am not waiting to see any reports I have seen them and contributed to them – again I say I will wait for the appeal outcome if it comes, in the meantime am waiting the due process of justice to run its course. There is plenty of proof of Izetbegovic calling for Mujahedins to join his Muslim army. They would not have been there if he as commander-in-chief of the army had not agreed and if that is not enough for you well that’s tough or perhaps your escape to accept the truth.
The guys who divided Bosnia with Milosevic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=h3QkJ7zbZ_4
Note the date of the Bosnian Sabor in relationship to the start of genocidal ABiH and Mujahadeen aggression against the Croats of Central Bosnia, North Herzegovina and East Mostar.
therealamericro – a sentence from this film “…that which we lack is better organisation and change in strategy and tactics and above all change in our national army to be made up of 100% Muslims …” says it all
Ina, any bets on if Amir responds to the video?
🙂
Grac agreement would give you much better picture of it and the fact that today Dragan Covic and croats celebrate the day of RS with Dodik and serbs,
braco p – the “real” Croats will never celebrate RS with the Serbs but those who form the army that worked against Tudjman and concocted all sorts of lies will and do. It’s pathetic and sad. You have missed perhaps one important issue: those who worked and still work against Tudjman were those who did not want a democratic, independent Croatia in the first place – those who wanted communist Yugoslavia to survive. The political elite.
Yeah, you are right, that “agreement” was another Karadjordjevo “agreement” (after which Croatia and Serbia went to total war for 4 years, with a two assassination attempts against Tudman, and Serbia in the end got routed because that was part of the “agreement”), because we all know that the VRS and HVO stopped fighting after Graz, and the HVO “didn’t” step up its pressure on the VRS in Posavina (to which Izetbegovic sent NOT A SINGLE reinforcement as he was sending fresh ABiH / TO forces to HVO liberated areas and they were digging in their lines not against the VRS but against the HVO) or wage multiple successful combined arms offensives across W Bosnia 1992-1995 setting the stage for Oluja and the near total defeat of the VRS that the UK, France and Netherlands frenzily tried to halt, which unfortunately the US forced to a halt.
Ina I don’t think Tudman will come back from dead and alter the tape nor transcript.Even if did he would be late because ,I personally have listened to all of them ,read most of the transcripts so I don’t think in year or two It will be my pleasure or displeasure ,and I did all of it because its public.Must tell you that he even mentions you by your name not diaspora,but I guess you people down under don’t have google,bing nor youtube,so you all cant wait for it to come out.I live in USA and believe me or not I know bunch a croats and all of them actually hate Tudman because they are sure he ripped them off and lied to them.But anyways how are you going to feel when you get that full report and learn that Tudman and Skegro did actually rip off every single person who has ever send any money.To you a tape of Delic talking to mujahedeens is good enough proof to accuse Izetbegovic of calling them up but Tudman in his own words ,voice does not do that much.But anyways you will learn that he didt play anybody but was played.Where do you people think Ante Markovic got the tapes of both Tudman and Milosevic.
braco p – no one said that Tudjman will come back from the dead but there is plenty of evidence in his favour. Tapes as I said in a criminal court process must undergo fully independent forensic examination and if they do not they are not worth the tape they,re taped on – unless of course the court pursues a political agenda. As you know tapes can be doctored, snippets of talk or speech joined together to appear as whole etc etc, voice overs etc etc; taken out of context etc. I am adult enough to accept final court verdict only when I’m satisfied that evidence has passed the rigorous evidence test required of criminal courts; I only accept a verdict beyond any reasonable doubt and that does not include opinions given as testimony because, unfortunately, there is the matter of perjury always possible and hearsay is a dangerous ground in politically coloured court cases. Where did Ante Markovic get the tapes you ask – ask UDBA – and ask: are these tapes doctored. Even Mesic’s evidence in the Hague regarding Tudjman & Milosevic meetings at Karadjordjevo was opinion of what he thought was discussed not actual witnessing. The American Croats I know do not think as you say but guess who spread the lies that Tudjman ripped off the diaspora? He did not but others did who spread the word it was him. I hold quite a bank of evidence at a secure site, there has been a book written about trails of money by a foreign investigative journalist, there’s been a High Court case in London 1999 to return the funds unspent from diaspora, held as surety for Croatian government international loan of 1990’s to Croatia – every cent was accounted for except those that some Croatian dignitaries took with them and mysteriously disappeared – Tudjman was not one of those. Tudjman had complete trust of the diaspora for the funds to be spent according to need for humanitarian aid, satellite phones at times of breakup from UDBA riddled Yugoslavia, motor vehicles to get around in and this was followed. You choose to believe malicious gossip because you obviously do not like the man and it’s there where our paths differ – I rely on facts where funds are concerned.
By the way all the tapes did get full forensic examination and im sad to inform you its real voice of Tudman,and nobody from your side has ever questioned that point,I guess you are just knocking on wrong door here.
I never knock on wrong doors braco p – my sight is quite good, can you please provide details of those forensic examinations and if there has been any second independent examination. By the by, your previous comments have been deleted due to personal attacks and you still continue with your cynical comments, which will not be replied to in the future – as I said before start your own blog and vent your cynicism there.
What a little man or woman you seem to be braco p. Do you really think that those who doctor audio tapes would put anyone elses voice on them than the person’s they want to incriminate! Of course it would be Tudjman’s voice in this case but the tape itself does not necessarily have to truly represent the occasion people accusing say they do – bits and pieces can easily be edited and put together to seem like a continuous whole. I too really look forward to you letting us readers know by whom and when was the forensic examination done. You do realize that I am not trying to be clever here, I only know that in criminal evidence law rules are strict and if they haven’t been insisted upon, even double-checking by independent audio analysis, then it’s a sad indictment on the defendant’s legal representation.
Been following this “dialogue” – and one thing is clear: braco p and Amir Pilipovic do not want to give dues process a chance. That’s unfortunate because there is nothing you Ina or the other commentator therealamericro have said that would lead me to believe that you do not respect the rule of due process. I turn to case of Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markac for instance – all those that seemed similar in mind as braco p and Amir Pilipovic have not yet changed their “factual” ramblings of period after Trials ICTY judgment of April 2011 even though the November 2012 appeal judgment had overturned it and found no case for JCE by majority decision. I can see that it is indeed more difficult to fight lies and half-truths and I take my hat off to you Ina. You do not need to do what you do, sacrifice so much time and efforts in fighting lies and half-truths, but you do it anyway because you care.
This babbling about “the tapes” really has to end.
Provide us direct quotes, IN CONTEXT. Out of context quotes are not valid because they are O U T O F C O N T E X T.
Now, you may say, well the ICTY accepted them but any court that takes out of context quotations as “evidence” and ignores the preceding and proceeding sentences and the actual surrounding military-political-historical circumstances is not a legal court, but a Stalinist / Nazi show court.
Totally agree therealamericro – as of yesterday some comments have been moderated or trashed as they have started to take the form of harassment and undue cynical personal attack – which doesn’t surprise me given the topics however neither I nor my respected readership should be put through barrages of questions or comments one simply cannot answer adequately in this space or forum to give everyone due respect and due attention.