Celebrating Croatia’s admission into the UN on the main
square in Zagreb upon the return of President Franjo Tudjman
from New York on 24 May 1992. Croatia declared its
independence on 25 June 1991, confirmed this decision
on 8 October 1991 at the expiration of the moratorium,
and was recognised by the international community on
15 January 1992. Photo: http://www.croatia.eu
Booing and jeering grew louder on Monday 5 August in Knin as Prime Minister Zoran Milanovic climbed onto the podium to deliver his address to the crowds celebrating Croatian Victory and Thanksgiving Day!
Milanovic walked to the podium to cries of “don’t let him speak”, “You don’t love Croatia”, “Monkey”, and “Manure” as the crowd showed their disapproval at Milanovic’s government’s policies over the last 18 months.
Milanovic spoke with a loud and forceful, somewhat embittered tone, evidently trying to outdo the jeering, whistling and booing from the crowd. As much as his speech contained praise for Croatia’s war efforts towards its independence and democracy, saying it was a righteous path, his words fell upon many disbelieving ears. After all it was Milanovic who only a few months ago wickedly said that Croatian Homeland War of 1990’s was a kind of a civil war similar to the one that had occurred in Finland!
After all, it’s Milanovic who confuses the issues about the War in Croatia; it’s Milanovic who has never expressed a strong and consistent view about the righteousness of Croatia’s fight for secession from communist Yugoslavia. Perhaps this is so because he has difficulties handling freedom and self-determination as the right of every citizen, singularly and/or as a nation.
Booing, jeering, whistling … at Knin, August 5:
The Police in Knin wasted no time is arresting one of the loudest men from the Knin crowd who booed, whistled and jeered at the Prime Minister. Police are still combing through video footage in order to gather evidence for further arrests! They say that the charge is disturbing of public peace!
“During the speeches from high-ranking state officials they whistled and yelled and created a racket disturbing the peace. One person has been arrested and will face court action at the Knin court, whilst investigation continues to catch the other culprits,” said a police statement. Monday’s official ceremonies were filmed and police will trawl through footage and have warned more people will face charges in the following days.
Booing, jeering and whistling at high ranking elected officials as they speak is a form of freedom of expression regarded as very normal behaviour of disapproval in developed democracies. It’s not swearing, blasphemy or what have you of the same offensive nature. Well not so in the apparently neo-communist arcades of the Croatian political scene – to “offend” a political leader, who happens to come from former communists ranks, by booing, jeering, whistling at him is obviously now considered a form of penal (read criminal) behaviour. Just as it was when communist Yugoslavia was alive and kicking its force around.
It’s blatantly and painfully obvious that democratic expressions of approval, or disapproval, have taken a serious step backward in Croatia during the past week; during the past couple of years…
Up until 1990, i.e. during the times of communist Yugoslavia, there was no booing, jeering or whistling at politicians while they spoke. To do so was dangerous and without fail landed one behind bars and ostracised as “unsuitable citizen” for life. This was just one ugly and brutal face of the Communist Party in Yugoslavia. Oh sure, they spoke of “socialism with a human face” but really that human face was defined by the communists as the one that had to be compatible with Party lines. Bitter experience led the people into growing careful as to what to say or not to say; one simply knew which words or non-verbal expressions of disapproval of political elites would land one behind bars, earn beatings, prison sentences …
Judging from what happened in Knin on Monday there is no doubt that Croatia is seeing a re-introduction of oppression, of fear mongering…of repression of freedom of expression. Threats made by the police (after arresting one man) to arrest more people for booing, jeering and whistling at public officials cannot be interpreted in any other way. These moves are not isolated or independently made by a local police station – they are part of the fabric of the newly “refreshed” police force padded with those that bow, nod and support the government which has major difficulties adjusting to democracy and abandoning the control freak show Yugoslavia was exposed to.
So, I ask myself: where did and how did Croatia stray from its primary goal set through 94% of democratic vote in 1991? Where did the message “we want to move away from totalitarian communism and move towards democracy” get lost in the past ten years especially? Why have so many Croatian politicians lost sight of that primary goal and wobble around interpreting – often recklessly – the events from the war rather than keeping check on how is democracy (the primary goal) is faring?
“Now is the winter of our discontent” are the opening words of Shakespeare’s play and lay the groundwork for the portrait of Richard III as a discontented man who is unhappy in a world that hates him. The brooding malevolence that Shakespeare has Richard personify mirrors the playwright’s view of the state of the English nation during the Wars of the Roses. Closer to our times, The Winter of Discontent refers to the winter of 1978–79 in the United Kingdom, during which there were widespread strikes by public sector trade unions demanding larger pay rises, following the ongoing pay caps of the Labour Party government led against Trades Union Congress opposition to control inflation, during the coldest winter for 16 years.
And, given the widespread disillusionment of Croatian people with the government and various politicians in opposition who expressly feed political divisions from the past, whose actions like the one above in Knin remind of painful and loathsome past, who have degraded and belittled the value of battles for democracy and exit from communist Yugoslavia, who have done little in putting right the thievery of national assets through corrupt individuals in high position, who evidently have little clue as to how to install an economy for betterment of citizens’ lives … I wonder if we are not looking at the Winter of Croatia’s Discontent that is simply bound to end, sooner than later, in widespread unrest that will bring new breath of life to the goal set by the people in 1991 (full democracy and freedom) and which goal has become buried amidst the kicking and screaming of die-hard communists. Ina Vukic, Prof. (Zgb); B.A., M.A.Ps. (Syd)
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From Facebook: The Communist Oligarchs have no need for freedom of expression, their Modus Operandi is taken straight from the Manifesto of Jozef Broz.
Yes indeed Michael D – the manifesto should have been eradicated a long time ago just as Franjo Tudjman said but sadly he was surrounded by many of those who had other plans – not democracy.
Who whistles there!?
Skoko – is that a disapproving, threatening frown I see in the speaker of those words?!
A bunch of selfish buggers. Can’t take critique, can’t learn from critique, can’t be politicians – at least not the ones representing the will of the people – who whistle and boo. So they’ll introduce punitive measures, intimidation … to keep going … not for long, not for long
Brave New World – it will also be as such for Croatia – God willing and people doing
All to the streets before winter!
It’s building up to that it seems, Spectator. There’s so much intimidation people can take.
That is damn sure NOT good!!
No, not at all, Amanda.
I am glad you agree, thank you.
From Facebook: The problem with vast majority of people is that they want to get rid of Communists, that is not OK, that is like getting rid of infection each time it comes but not the failing organ. It is important to understand why this happens and not condemn solely the act. In many European countries and here in Croatia where there has been previous totalitarian government there is something what is known as the Bird Syndrome, in bird syndrome it means that if you have a pet bird who has lived his life in a cage, then you release it to wild, it will always without doubt come back to the cage, not because he likes it but because he feels safe and knows nothing else, it is the same here with people and its common in all countries of Europe. It is important to get to know and understand why, and the causes, only then can it be dealt with properly or it will keep happening.
So right Maxim, divide, confuse … and you rule. Much work needs to be done in educating the people about democratic responsibility and rights so they can feel safe and confident
From Facebook: What message does the arrest of a man who was whistling to the prime minister’s speech express? That, if people go protest out on the streets against the governments this autumn, they will all be arrested? Democracy? Not even a “d” of democracy… My dear Croats, if you go out on the streets and whistle to the prime minister and his government, you will all be arrested.. So, watch your steps…Or, SHUT UP AND ZIP YOUR LIPS!
Like in the days of communist rule, Marija T – perhaps now masses can march the streets in silence and jeering eyes – what a powerful message that would be.
I have nominated you for the WordPress Family Award. Congratulation to you for your fine blogs as well as your warm and generous spirits. Please refer to this page on my blog for the details of the award.
http://talesalongtheway.com/2013/08/10/word-press-family-awards-2/
Happy blogging! Namaste……Anne
Thanks Anne – your support and feedback are cherished.
He did not say it on while on visit to Germany, he said it in Croatia.
Thank you Deana Sonjic for the correction. Much appreciate it.
So why is not the RH judicial system not speaking up against these arrests? Surely they know the law and are independent…. or are they?
Good question Anna Pazin, however I would think that the judicial system cannot comment or say anything before the cases/charges actually come before a court and then it will be a matter of evidence and interpretation of the actual law pertaining to public disorder etc… the relevant part of the law states “Whosoever at public places fights, quarrels, shouts or in other ways disrupts public order and peace, will be punished for the breach with the penalty of fine or prison up to 30 days” – so in effect if charge proven one is left with a criminal record… The way I and many see it there was no disruption of public order – the Prime Minister gave his speech from beginning to the end, proceedings continued etc and the conclusion one makes with the charges if pursued, even if one person is detained at this moment, that the political elite interpret the booing and jeering as offensive to the politician rather than an expression of freely/democratically expressed opinion … when it comes to expressing an opinion about a public official in his/her political capacity then the limits of ways should be or are wide. At this point in time I would have expected more from the opposition parties but it seems it may be seen as interfering with the process of following the current law/police powers…
What I find the most amazing is the fact that most of you commentators here live and work in diaspora,and know that the same person would be removed,arrested and charged in USA,England,Australia Canada etc,If it was Tudman speaking I guess all of you would be outraged at the guy and would post comments like,We don’t want hooligan state.Shame on him etc.In matter of fact you would be even fired if you interrupted low level manager at fast food joint and would be blamed for stupidity by pretty much everyone.
Braco I don’t know where you got the idea that most of the commentators live and work in the diaspora – I certainly am not able to ascertain that fact and I believe the facts are that commentators indeed in numbers live in Croatia. So please do not presume such things, but regardless of where they live they have good cause and knowledge to comment and interest as well. For the life of me I cannot see any evidence that the celebration proceedings were in fact interrupted, the prime minister delivered his whole speech regardless of booing, jeering and whistling. If he felt offended well then he should perhaps reexamine why such disapproval occurred from the public who are also voters – that’s what a politician should do – no place for pride in this instance I think.
braco p:
In Tudman’s era there were always hecklers and pseudo journalists on Belgrade’s payroll asking not only imbecilic, but inflammatory questions. Indeed the media during “Tudman’s terror” openly attacked him and his family personally with unsubstantiated charges, and frequently had Tudman in pornographic montages on the cover of Seral Fribune, KOS’s bilten in Croatia.
Amazingly, no one was ever arrested or fired.
Yet, when Mesic’s illegal business dealings and abuse of power were investigated, three top journalists were sacked and have since not been heard of in the media.
No one is writing about Milanovic’s highly questionable credit scam through his brother to build his palace (when, if one combined his, his wife’s, his brother’s and his brother’s wife’s income and saving, looking at their employers and salaries over the past two decades, all of them combined would not be able to cover monthly payments). Mysteriously.
FYI I live in Croatia ; – )
Ina,a person who was arrested is Luka Kozina and he was arrested for disorderly conduct,disturbance of peace and on top of all he wore a t-shirt with HOS,HSP AND ZDS .And on top of all of the above mentioned things he was under influence of alcohol.Now according to witnesses he called him a monkey and you don’t find anything wrong with that.
braco pd – once someone is arrested then the law and its interpretation kicks in and the article of law under which the man was reportedly arrested explicitly talks about interrupting public events etc and nothing was interrupted as far as I can see – the celebration proceedings and all planned speeches went along planned schedule. It will be the task of police to produce evidence to support its charges in court etc according to the interpretation of the given law. What insignia on T-shirts one wears is personal choice in a free country and certainly those acronyms are not offensive/ one is acronym for legal political party one for greeting For Homeland ready etc. As to words the person reportedly called the PM with such are heard all over the place in democracy as expressing disapproval of political leader etc, I’ve heard worse – but these have to do with other things/laws etc and not the one he was arrested under – in any case I personally see name-calling as wrong but the is on personal level and when one enters a political comment arena then we find that boundaries are blurred and often verbal expressions have different standards – to answer your question whether I find that wrong in this case I say I personally would not use such language but I have seen it used by protesters almost everywhere – after all a voter/ a taxpayer etc has rights in expressing opinion etc just as politicians do, if not more …
Therealamericro(you should work on your nick)Anyways you croats have a problem you are dealing with since ww2,You have Tito’s,Tudman’s ,Pavelic’s supporters and than you have those who just want to leave cro all together.Now you blame,trash each other but none of you is willing to have open.honest conversation ,You would like to solve the problem without mentioning Tudman ,which is not going to happen in near future,Even if you did you would deny all the evidence that may put Tudman in negative light,You hate and blame Ustashas,HOS,Paraga ,Blaz and all of the sudden you are not outraged at one of them,they are ok as long as they attack people you don’t like.Now why would it wrong for one of them to call Tudman donkey since you find it ok.You have made a circle of it and it just goes around for years so far.And none of you have intent of stopping it.Besides that guy would be arrested in western world for the same thing so you need to think of democracy you aspire.
braco pd – I’ll insert my bit here as well – you keep missing the point on purpose – have a look at the yellow media during Tudjman’s times and then tell us who was arrested for calling him names (much worse than what’s happened in Knin) – so don’t twist things just because you cannot recognise wrongs done by the authorities. Please also give evidence of people arrested for the same things in the western world and the law they have been arrested under. And please stop using “you Croats” and since you mention leaving Croatia why is it that it’s not “advertised” that many people left Croatia from say about early 1950’s because they fled communism not because they were for Pavelic etc – but hey – what would you know, you listen to Stjepan Mesic who has called all the diaspora as Ustashe (even though this is utterly untrue)and the reason for that is to maintain the lie that communism was good to say it simply. Have a look around if you’re in Croatia, ask around what people think about diaspora …
Ina,I have seen worse too,but also so people arrested for much less in America and it’s a message I would send to fellow people,instead of being outraged at the government, My first reaction to your article was,”Well you can’t do it in Australia nor America”
braco pd – have a better look at similar expressions of disappointment with politicians in America, Australia etc. Have a better look at what really happened in Knin and then compare it with the actual law – not for me but for yourself I am objectively satisfied that there was no interruption of the public proceedings in Knin.
Let’s have a national whistle day in Croatia to stand in solidarity with the poor chap who whistled at the insecure and cowardly PM. Whether you like the current government or not, this act of arresting someone who expressed this right to protest should not be tolerated.
Sunman – great idea and such solidarity to be paired with demand for change. Watching the video footage of the event in Knin I cannot see public order disrupted or any unrest that actually disrupted the order of the proceedings in Knin. Indeed the prime minister delivered his whole speech etc and all speakers got their turn to speak and police did not need to swarm against anyone to return peace because no peace was disrupted…
Why is it that we as Croatians have to defend ourselves for being nationalists, patriots, defenders of Croatia: not only from our traditional “enemies” but from our fellow Croatians as well? Since when is it illegal to be proud of your heritage? Why is illegal to wear the symbol of Croatian heritage – our traditional coat of arms-( hrvatski grb)in Croatia today? Since when is it illegal to be proud to be a defender of Croatia? – “Za Dom Spremni!” Since when is it illegal to be proud of whatever political party you support? HSP and the Croatian paramilitary forces HOS in this case. Whom do these national symbols, words or parties disturb? Why was it necessary to change our beloved, centuries-old flag – Who Does That???? No government has the right to change something as iconic, as sacred as a national flag without at least deferring to their citizens via referendum/vote to obtain a mandate to do so! Whatever touchstones of commonality that we as a nation had and preserved for centuries – even throughout the bloody years of Communism were ripped away from us – and not at the hands of our “enemies” but at the hands of our “nationbuilders”,our patriots, our ” Croatian George Washington”! And while on the subject of Tudjman, why is it that he cannot be criticized? Was he not imperfect as we all are? Did he not make mistakes for which he justifiably deserves to be criticized? We have to learn to discuss – air opinions – listen to other viewpoints, in other words act as free thinking, objective human beings and not like piranhas ripping to shreds those who hold differing opinions. If we as a people have a fatal flaw it would be that we are not cohesive, we cannot seem to find a common ground from which to build and work towards a goal. In this respect ‘braco pd’ does have a point – we are caught in a downward spiral of political/ideological bickering and arguing that has no end – no resolution. Constantly the same reopening of old wounds from the Second World War, constantly one side pulling against the other, the same tired phrases repeated ad nauseam whenever a sympathetic word is voiced for the ‘wrong’ side…etc,etc. As I have said before, I see no future for ourselves as a nation unless and until we, each and every one of us, are on the same page. This ideological schism amongst Croatians will have to be bridged and healed. We have to come to terms with the cold, hard facts of our past – our leaders have to examine, admit to, and apologize for the wrongdoings that were committed and our judiciary will have to bring those responsible to justice . It will definitely require an immense effort of political will to take on such a huge task and it remains to be seen as to whether anyone is courageous enough to do so. Up to now, despite all their promises, our politicians have failed us miserably.
Thank you velebit and I agree that Croatia must come to terms with its past – ALL OF IT! Not just one part of it and that is where things get stuck and will continue being stuck. As to criticising Tudjman I personally do not have anything against crticising however I have a particular dislike to people making accusations without providing evidence.
QUOTE: “Therealamericro(you should work on your nick)Anyways you croats have a problem you are dealing with since ww2,You have Tito’s,Tudman’s ,Pavelic’s supporters and than you have those who just want to leave cro all together.” ENDQUOTE
Your ad hominem has nothing to do with anything. And your “argument” above is ridiculous as the actual on-the-ground support for either Pavelic and Tito is miniscule at best, the problem is Yugoslav ultranationalist-socialist media (well over 90 percent of Croatia’s media) and their cabal at the University of Zagreb pumps WWII as a means of smoke and mirrors for not addressing or solving any real problems (when post-Tudman, de-Tudmanized [de-Croatianized] HDZ is in power, they do the same).
People want to work and live normal lives. Conversations here are not about WWII, it is about how these clowns in government and the opposition have NO long-term strategies for economic development.
Most people don’t care about the last Hapsburgh, the genocidal locksmith Tito nor the paranoid Mayor of Zagreb, Pavelic.
The overwhelming majority of Croats in Croatia want what the overwhelming majority of Croats in B&H want – a Croatian entity as the post-Tudman raping of the Washington Accords and Dayton Agreement by the likes of Fatty Assdown and other OHR colonial creation Begs to weaken the Croats, to goad the Muslims into trying to disenfranchize Croats entirely to strengthen RS, oppresses and disenfranchizes their Croatian bretherin in the colonial creation known as B&H, and threatens Croatia’s strategic depth.
QUOTE: “Now you blame,trash each other but none of you is willing to have open.honest conversation ,You would like to solve the problem without mentioning Tudman ,which is not going to happen in near future,Even if you did you would deny all the evidence that may put Tudman in negative light,” ENDQUOTE
When the “evidence” presented has the primary source of wartime Tanjug, Novosti and Politika propaganda, or better yet, the lunatic conspiracy theories of the KOS operative Dobroslav Paraga, then there is no discussion, let alone honest, because lies are the premise of the debate.
Tudman a) Organized and led Croatia’s successful defense, achieving four out of out of seven strategic objectives lined out in 1989, with two being fulfilled recently [NATO and EU], ONLY because Tudman won the war decisively b) Organized and led the defense of B&H and saved 700,000 Bosniaks from physical extermination in the spring and summer of 1992 (only to be stabbed by them in the back), with 500,000 Bosniaks going to Croatia and another 200,000 finding refuge in HVO / HZHB territory where the men amongst the Bosniaks were given uniforms, arms, and trained c) Saved Croatians in Central Bosnia and West Hercegovina from physical extermination at the hands of the ABiH aggressors and the thousands of bloodthirsty, rapist Mujahideen terrorists they embraced as brothers d) Tudman left Croatia with a 9 bn USD debt (today it is close to 50 bn EUR), with funds for the highway already in place, despite the war damage alone costing 30 billion USD and the cost of arming the HV, HVO and ABiH running upwards of 80 bn – with all critical government companies still in a majority Croatian government shareholding (INA, HNB, which was in 1999 still solvent, Hrvatski Telecom), and a de facto Hercegbosna where Croats had economic and political freedom (stripped as soon as that bearded traitor that volunteered to lie against HVO generals in the interests of greater Serbdom and Bosniak jihadism / Bosniak AVNOJ BiH unitarist Titoism, who, while accusing the Croatian Army of “ethnic cleansing” in both Blijesak and Oluja to the US embassy [whose investigations proved him to be a liar], was hanging [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1MjQMbM0zM, http://www.hsp1861.hr/vijesti/200720jldd.htm%5D out with the proven TRAITOR and LIAR [http://www.hsp1861.hr/vijesti/970809haag.htm] Paraga).
QUOTE: “You hate and blame Ustashas,HOS,Paraga ,Blaz and all of the sudden you are not outraged at one of them,they are ok as long as they attack people you don’t like. ENDQUOTE
Ustasas, there were a lot of them. The decision makers proved to be bad, and those with innocent blood on their hands – policy makers or on the ground – are bad. But not all Ustasas were bad. What choice did the 90 percent of Croats during WWII, HSS supporters and generally conservative and religious, have after the genocidal VJ, Gendarmes and local Chetnik organizations began slaughtering Croats (and Muslims for that matter) as soon as the Germans invaded? Were they to thank the Chetniks for coming to slaughter them, after raping their women and burning their houses?
As for Paraga, see the above. He didn’t just “happen” to come to speak before the Republicans in a trip organized by that Chetnik savage and Serbian Unity Congress founding member Helen Delich Bently before the war, screaming about how Croatia would be to the Drina and without Serbs. Nor did he just “happen” to be the most interviewed Croatian politician by the Serb media in 1991 and 1992. Nor did he and Kraljevic just “happen” to declare NDH in front of foreign cameras – are we to assume that you support a Hrvatska do Drina (minute 5:14 on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ3u1GIVDdQ) like Kraljevic?
Hecklers get removed, they don’t get fined. Not in the US.
QUOTE: “Now why would it wrong for one of them to call Tudman donkey since you find it ok.You have made a circle of it and it just goes around for years so far.And none of you have intent of stopping it. Besides that guy would be arrested in western world for the same thing so you need to think of democracy you aspire.”ENDQUOTE
They can call Tudman whatever they want – he is a historical winner and all of his enemies, like critics, losers ; – )
All I am saying that the guy being arrested is absurd – even Milanovic said so ; – )
QUOTE: “Why was it necessary to change our beloved, centuries-old flag – Who Does That???? No government has the right to change something as iconic, as sacred as a national flag without at least deferring to their citizens via referendum/vote to obtain a mandate to do so! Whatever touchstones of commonality that we as a nation had and preserved for centuries – even throughout the bloody years of Communism were ripped away from us – and not at the hands of our “enemies” but at the hands of our “nationbuilders”,our patriots, our ” Croatian George Washington”! ENDQUOTE
Didn’t Pavelic change the traditional Croatian flag when he put the U on the flag? Did he allow for a referendum on that?
QUOTE: “And while on the subject of Tudjman, why is it that he cannot be criticized? Was he not imperfect as we all are? Did he not make mistakes for which he justifiably deserves to be criticized? ” ENDQUOTE
Who said he cannot be criticized? There is plenty to criticize. He didn’t have traitors like Mesic, Manolic and Paraga executed for their treasonous activities, like most states would during war. But again, Tudman calculated, correctly, that it would be a PR disaster and only do the Serbs a favor. That is a major criticism of mine, I think he should have bitten the bullet there. Also, he continued to arm the so-called ABiH the duration of the war, even after their stab in the back and continuous genocidal aggression August 1992-September 1994 – I know it was politically expedient to do so, and, were the ICTY a real court, that fact alone would have led to an entirely different ruling for Prlic et. al. because it turns the entire indictment on its head. Tudman was wrong in his calculation that the overwhelming evidence of his / Croatia’s / B&H Croats via HVO and HZHB saving B&H Croats and Bosniaks from physical extermination, arming and supplying the ABiH the duration of the conflict, would mean that even with French, UK, Dutch and Swedish scheming, the ICTY would never charge Croatia waged “aggression” against B&H, as Documenta, Veritas, BaBe, Centar za Mir i Nenasilje, Puhovski, Pupovac, Mesic and Paraga charge. He should have cut them off entirely, in retrospect.
But again, that is all monday morning quarterbacking.
The problem is when Politika / Borba / Novosti wartime agitprop talking points and subversive lies that Seral Fribune recycled every Sunday is “argued” as if it were a legitime criticism against Tudman by the Yugoslavs (Mesic, Puhovski, Pusic etc.) and the MUstase (Paraga, Hadzihasanovic, Kubura, Halilovic, etc.) as if those contradictory lies have anything to do with reality (“dogovoren rat,” “prodaja Vukovara i Posavine,” Vesna Pusic’s doctoral thesis of a ruling, KPH-KPJ 200 family elite being proscribed to Tudman as his economic policy because he once mentioned the Japanese model as a successful economic model, etc.).
As for Tudman, the turnout at his funeral says it all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMCrU5UzU1U. The people spoke when they showed up to say one last goodbye, and, the more time goes on, even his harshest critics realize and admit that, in terms of strategic and tactical leadership, he was the greatest Croatian statesmen in Croatian history and that it will be another milennia until we see a leader of that strength, resolve, and chain of victories.
*Pored rijeke, zora svice, cekamo Vas, Predsjednice*
And, for those who cannot see their hands in front of their own faces in regards to Tudman’s brilliant leadership, I give you the words of his enemies:
Njegovi vojnici znaju da je on i sam spreman boriti se za Hrvatsku. Pod njegovim predsjedanjem u Hrvatskoj se nije razvili istinski zrela demokracija – postoji, na primjer,vrlo snažan nadzor Vlade nad tiskom i televizijom – no nema sumnje da je Tuđman za svoj narod pravi izbor vođe. O Tuđmanovu vodstvu tijekom rata njegovi će sunarodnjaci suditi povoljno. Odupro se Srbima 1991. i s jednom trećinom zemlje, što ju je smatrao okupiranom, prihvati je Vanceov sporazum o prekidu vatre u siječnju 1992. samo kao sredstvo za dobivanje predaha za izgradnju hrvatske vojne sile i uzvratni udarac Srbima. Služi se diplomatskim ritualima, na riječima podupire pregovore, no vojno će udariti ako i kada smatra da može proći nekažnjeno.
(…)
Za razliku od Miloševića, koji je potpuni pragmatik, Tuđman je oportunist glede hrvatskih interesa. U životu ima samo jedan cilj – nadzirati cijeli teritorij za koji smatra da povijesno pripada Hrvatskoj – i u tu će svrhu upotrijebiti sva sredstva. To će učiniti sa smiješkom, podrugljivim izrazom lica ili napadajem bijesa, što ukazuje na uzavrelu aktivnost koja ga pokreće. Strašno je borben na teniskom terenu ili za pregovaračkim stolom i takav je majstor da sam se i sam često divio kako odabire pravo vrijeme za svoje vojne i diplomatske intervencije, čak i onda kada bi upropastio i unazadio naše vlastite planove.
(….)
Tuđman je 10. siječnja (1995., op.) u Zagrebu kazao veleposlanicima Kontaktne skupine te veleposlanicima Kine, Italije i Svete Stolice da je hrvatska Vlada temeljito razmotrila svoje opcije u svjetlu onoga što su nazivali neuspjehom UNPROFOR-a da provede svoj mandat. Činilo se da žele ignorirati otvaranje autoceste Zagreb-Beograd 22. prosinca za dnevni promet, a dva tjedna kasnije i dvadeset i četiri sata dnevno, sedam dana tjedno. U svezi s provedbom gospodarskog sporazuma, tvrdili su da hrvatski Srbi odugovlače i kazali da nisu spremni dopustiti Miloševiću da diktira tempo događaja, te da je Hrvatska odlučila da ne odobri produžetak mandata UNPROFOR-a nakon 31. ožujka. Bio je to klasični Tuđman, a čovjek se morao diviti njegovoj krajnjoj smionosti.
(…)
Pobjednici u jugoslavenskim ratovima bili su Hrvati i predsjednik Tuđman. Gubitnici su bili hrvatski Srbi i njihov beskorisni vođa Martić.
David Owen, Balkanska Odiseja
Bilo je pitanje vremena kada će se JNA morati povući iz Hrvatske. Tuđman je zauzeo ispravan strategijski stav: na vanjskom planu insistirati na priznanju suverene Hrvatske, u zemlji ubrzano naoružavati i stvarati vojsku koja bi se mogla suprotstaviti istovremeno i JNA i krajiškoj paravojsci, a kada Hrvatska bude priznata i JNA se bude morala povući, poraziti krajišku vojsku i natjerati Srbe na poslušnost. Dok se ne stvore pretpostavljeni uvjeti zauzet je stav da se odugovlači, pregovara, ne izaziva JNA na radikalan razračun, kada se ocijeni da bi to ona mogla učiniti tražiti prekid neprijateljstava, jednom riječju – kupovati vrijeme. Uspjelo mu je ostvariti sva tri cilja s tim što se poraz krajiške vojske morao odgoditi dok se ne steknu sve neophodne međunarodne okolnosti najposrednije povezane s ratom u Bosni i porazom bosanske srpske vojske proljeća i ljeta ’95.
(…)
Politika i strategija Franje Tuđmana i HDZ-a u vremenu razbijanja Jugoslavije, rata u Hrvatskoj i Bosni i Hercegovini bila je konzistentno sročena, saopćava bez sustezanja, ostvarivana korak po korak, bez radikalnih promjena i lomova. Nesuglasice oko konstituiranja stavova u vrhu HDZ-a i državnim tijelima bile su više-manje javne. Autoritarni prijekori Tuđmana javno su upućivani kako svima u stranki, tako i državnim funkcionerima, a u novije vrijeme i Evropi, Americi, UN. U njegovim postupcima nema iznenađenja, rečeno sprovodi, taktizira kad i koliko mora, ali je arogantan kada to ne mora.
(…)
Početkom 1990/91. Tuđman je bio preslab da se oslobodi Jugoslavije, Srbe u Hrvatskoj i Bosni i Hercegovini dovede u potčinjen položaj, izbalansira snage sa Srbijom i preuzme političku i vojnu inicijativu u regionu. U tome mu je JNA bila glavna prepreka. Nije bilo nikakvih izgleda da s njom išta sporazumno riješi. Ostao mu je samo jedan izlaz – JNA politički, moralno i najposlije vojno onemogućiti štoviše razbiti i poraziti. JNA je bila glavna Tuđmanova preokupacija sve dok se ova nije morala povući iz Hrvatske. Dogodilo se to početkom 1992 – Hrvatska je bila međunarodno priznata i JNA se našla na tuđoj teritorij: agresor.
Branko Mamula, Slučaj Jugoslavija
Eat your hearts out haters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vJ4zrB41mg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6hTbLJszyM
; – )
Oh, yes – thank you therealamericro!
And before some droid rambles about how Tudman caused a war with the Muslims, I ask them to check their dates, as the war started on Jan. 26, 1993 when the genocidal ABiH aggressors stabbed Croatia and B&H Croats in the back and massacred Dusina (after a dozen staged skirmishes and probing operations starting in August 1992).
For all of the Cviecari: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZc3Wfibqj4&list=PLAABB174A7EC8C99B
Or are Mesic, Puhovski, Izetbegovic, Halilovic, Pusic, Terselic, Banac and Paraga more knowledgable than Lt. Col. Dr. Charles Reginald Schrader, US Army War College and West Point Professor of Military History?
“Dogovoren rat” fables were created by Belgrade. In fact, the first person to argue this was Vojislav Seselj, days before the UN-forced meeting between Tudman and Milosevic in Karadjordjevo, in Politika magazine (he was lamenting that Milosevic was giving up on a “Srbija do Zagrebackog Katedrala”). This, of course, Danas and all of the other Jugoglasile, as well as the paid agents of Belgrade in UJDI (Puhovski, Goldstein, Pusic), repeated ad infinitum along with that KOSovac Paraga.
Mesic and rest of them are not more knowledgable than Charles but Madaliene Albright ,Worren Zimmerman,Petar Galbraith and Richard Holbrook are,All of them have known Tudman personally and none has anything good to say about him, Besides you have very limited or no knowledge of Halilovic and some other people .As of dates ,you have no idea of them,according to you it started on 1/6/1993 and ABIH has started it all,Well there is a problem with that my friend Blaz Kraljevic was killed on 8/9 /1992 as General of ABIH,Now im not going to argue with you over the reason for his killing,weather he was killed for being loyal to BiH or becouse he was croat,But we all know that he was killed by HVO,’convicts unit’ or Tuti if you want.I kinda only have a problem with your dates,your wrong teaching of the history.Its worth noting Blaz was killed together with couple other people and was massacred dead.
Amir Pilipovic – ah but you are wrong re who said what about Tudjman in your list above – I can find Richard Holbrook’s good words on http://www.tudjman.hr/rekli-su/ and many other great people of the world who had only good things to say about Tudjman. Besides who said what from the outside world is not important really – it all comes down to ones own pride in one self and Croats have a great deal to be proud of and lies and half-truths and innuendos coming from people like yourself who appear to think they know everything when if fact they do not will never dampen that pride.
Amir:
You “conveniently” forget the murder of 4 HVO officers on Radusa Mountain on a leader’s reconnaissance towards Serb lines on J-U-N-E 13, 1992, by their ABiH / TO “allies,” and the fact that the ABiH launched multiple attacks against the HVO and Croatian civilians in Gornji Vakuf and Uskoplje on June 13, 1992.
The Dusina massacre is still the official start of all out warfare however.
Yet again, YOU LOSE AMIR.
; – )
Therealamericro,If you check your own dates you will find out that Blaz was killed 8/9/1992 together with his crew,also you will find out that ethnic cleansing of Muslim population has taken place way before jan/1993.Blaz was killed as General of ABIH and when you compare your dates with actual ones ,You will most likely be disappointed in yourself… REMAINDER DELETED AS INAPPROPRIATE AND OFFENSIVE
So, Braco, you support a Croatia to the river Drina then I presume?
You too “conveniently” forget the murder of 4 HVO officers on Radusa Mountain on a leader’s reconnaissance towards Serb lines on J-U-N-E 13, 1992, by their ABiH / TO “allies,” and the fact that the ABiH launched multiple attacks against the HVO and Croatian civilians in Gornji Vakuf and Uskoplje on June 13, 1992.
I would add TO and ABiH-launched skirmish agains the HVO to get HVO-captured JNA weapons in Busovaca on May 10, 1992.
And the ABiH / TO attacks against the HVO and Croatian civlians in Senkovci, Sinokos and Donje Pecine, Opara, as well as in Travnik itself, with the ABiH using heavy artillery agaisnt the villages, on Oct. 18, 1992.
And you forget the ABiH destruction of the HVO Field Hospital in Travnik – which serviced Bosniaks and ABiH members as well as Croats, and the ethnic cleansing of all non-Bosniaks from Northern Travnik at gunpoint Oct. 1HVO commander Ivica Stojak on Oct. 20, 1992 by Mudjahideen in Medresa, on the orders of that war criminal Asim Koricic, Commander of the 7th Muslim Motorized Brigade.
And you forget the roadblock set up by the ABiH at Ahmici and the ambush against the HVO there on Oct. 20, 1992.
And you forget the Oct. 22, 1992 meeting of the “Headquarters of territorial defense forces of Prozor municipality” (the so-called ABiH) and commanders of Muslim forces from neighboring municipalities that took place in the house of Zibo Korman in the village of Blace (municipality Rama/Prozor). The chairperson Mustafa Hero, the commander of Muslim forces in Prozor stating,according to the meeting notes taken by Alija Emric, that on Friday, October 23rd 1992 the fight for Prozor will start and that at the end of it “The Muslims will call the shots in the city”, and that in the fight they will be helped by the Muslims from Gornji Vakuf (around 1000 fighters) and Konjic (around 500 men).
And on, and on, and on, and on….
Amnesia of convenience perhaps gents?
Therealamericro,First you claim Muslims have started it all on jan/6/1993,now you claim thay have started it all june/13/1992,Well I was wondering if you could do me a favor and make your mind up on these dates,I mean which one is it.Two days ago a video appeared on youtube called SASTANAK SIS-a U MOSTARU,main speaker is Historian Ivo Lucic(Head of SIS)but anyways they talk about Croatian war crimes and one of them even says SRUSIJO SAM JA BALIJAMA STARI MOST(long hidden Croatian secret).What do you think of Sporazum u Gracu,where Boban and Karadzic split BIH between Croats and Serbs,But anyways just correct your dates,numbers and language ,..
Let me understand you clearly….Pavelic changed the flag first, by adding a U in the upper left corner, therefore that made it perfectly acceptable for Tudjman to change it as he saw fit?? Pretty flimsy argument to justify something so nationally significant n’est pas?
Velebit:
Please don’t put words into my mouth.
I pointed out Pavelic’s flag change because usually those who harp about the flag change happen to have no problem with Pavelic’s flag change.
The issue is miniscule in the grand scheme of things, and, being that that is a key / major “argument” about how Tudman was a (freely, overwhelming majority elected) “dictator,” I thought it was necessary to point out.
Thousands died with that flag on their shoulder as soldiers and police (and logistics and medical staff), and were buried under that flag. It is an integral part of Croatian history – just like all preceding flags whether the Grb started with the white or red square, including Croatia’s WWII flag.
If changing the flag is pretty much all that the far left and far right have as a “criticism”, it just goes to show just what a great leader the first, and to date, only Croatian President Tudman was.
I’m not saying you are either far left or right, you could be a centrist for all I know, and honestly, I don’t care. But looking at Tudman’s absolute tactical and strategic victory, it is absolutely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
Minutia at best.
Agreement in full with you therealamericro – a flag belongs to people not a person and it’s the people who died clutching onto the flag that meant a great deal to them. I have yet to see an example of Tudjman’s actions that would classify him as a dictator. Mean tongues will wag and it’s usually the ones who would be generals after the battles are done
“Who said he cannot be criticized, there is plenty to criticize. He (Tudjman)didn’t have traitors like Mesic, Manolic and Paraga executed for their treasonous activities, like most states would during war. But, again, Tudjman calculated, correctly, that it would be a PR disaster and only do the Serbs a favor. This is a major criticism of mine, I think he should have bitten the bullet there.”
Surprisingly harsh words from the realamericro. Whatever happened to due process? If these aforementioned Croatian citizens were/are traitors who should have been executed, than surely Tudjman would not have been adverse to investigations of suspected criminal activities being launched against the three. But this is exactly what he did not do. In fact he did the exact opposite. For Mesic was appointed by Tudjman to the second most powerful position in the country- Prime Minister! Why would Tudjman bestow on Mesic such a reward unless Tudjman felt he deserved it? And by the way, Mesic never hid his past, he never regretted his political history, I remember listening to a short wave broadcast in early nineties where he described with great pride his WWII role as a young Partisan! So, Mesic’s reputation and standing in present day Croatia is no surprise to me, nor should it be to anyone! He told you what he was right out of the gate, and was accepted by Tudjman and HDZ et al without any reservations! Its only now that he has truly pushed tolerances to the limit that has he been justifiably vilified and scourged.
Ah, Manolic….the second Prime Minister of Croatia after Mesic , another Communist Partisan, high ranker in OZNA and UDBA and Tudjman’s right hand!- until he turned on him. Why no criminal proceedings against him? Why no purge of former Communists period? As for Paraga, go ahead and try him if there are grounds to do so! No one should be exempt from scrutiny especially on suspicion of treason! The key question remains – Why was there no political will to do exactly that?
Velebit – just a short comment in reply – Mesic was born in 1934 and if he boasted about his role as young Partisan in WWII he was 6 years old when war started and 11 years old when it ended – what role he could have played there as a child is really quite clear
Yes, Ina, I agree – but I think that more to the point is not whether or not he played a significant role in the war, but rather that even in 1990, a time of ‘flux’ and political uncertainty, he was quite comfortable putting himself squarely on side with the Partisans/Communists! Could the reason for this openness be that he recognized that there would be no repercussions for former Communists – and that in fact the transition to a democratic form of govt. would be seamless because the old guard would still be occupying key positions in the new govt.? No repercussions, no accountability, no justice……twenty-three years later!
Yes Velebit I think you’re right – he is still fighting the very notion of prosecuting communist crimes let alone standing aside and allowing justice for victims to get its due course
QUOTE: Surprisingly harsh words from the realamericro. Whatever happened to due process? If these aforementioned Croatian citizens were/are traitors who should have been executed, than surely Tudjman would not have been adverse to investigations of suspected criminal activities being launched against the three. ENDQUOTE
Did I say there should have been no due process like in WWII and its aftermath, or at best show trials like in WWII and its aftermath? No I did not.
The problem with the aforementioned traitors is that they were very known public figures and had connections at the highest level of international politics, to and include the US embassy (to whom Mesic, Manolic and Boljkovac went crying to during and after both Bljesak and Storm, rambling about how it was “ethnic cleansing” and part of a “agreed upon war” in “Karadjordjevo” – something Dobroslav Paraga also argued and continues to argue – with Mesic the day after Bljesak ended going to Germany to rant and rave about a Hrvatska do Drina to a crowd of HSP sheep https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1MjQMbM0zM – it must be noted that DIA and State Department investigations into both Bljesak and Oluja contradicted all of Mesic’s claims, as did the war itself), and arresting, trying and executing them would have been a PR disaster.
One that in retrospect I believe could have been weathered considering the ample evidence against them, but again, the media and diplomatic war was just as important as the war-on-the-ground, if not more important, in Tudman’s eyes. In the end, under Tudman’s visionary leadership, Croatia achieved a total victory on all geostrategic levels. So I’ll let it go.
QUOTE: “But this is exactly what he did not do. In fact he did the exact opposite. For Mesic was appointed by Tudjman to the second most powerful position in the country- Prime Minister! Why would Tudjman bestow on Mesic such a reward unless Tudjman felt he deserved it?” ENDQUOTE
Tudman was an obvious student of Sun Tzu.
Croatia had 40,000 UDBa / KOS informants and 8,000 operatives on the ground in 1991. With Croatia’s international situation: duplicitous UK, French, Netherlands, and UN policies denouncing Milosevic while aiding and abetting him by forcing the arms embargo to ensure a quick JNA victory and a continuation of Yugoslavia; a hostile UNSC entirely against Croatian independence, 70,000 SRAO “Krajina” soldiers and police armed to the teeth and backed up by a few hundred thousand Serbianized JNA members; a savage propaganda war being waged against Croatia in Western media and diplomatic circles by Belgrade and its sympathizers (particularly British and French media), aided and abetted by Dobroslav Paraga who regurgitated EXACTLY what Belgrade was saying / wanted a public Croatian figure to say; Tudman, ever the Sun Tzu student, decided to break the internal resistance by offering a temporary fig leaf to break up the UDBa/KOS hydra into pieces (something that Radoncic in his debriefing after his defection succintly pointed out was successful) by goading the top operators to join the Croatian cause.
He gave them a false offer of political and employment survival, and neutralized the threat in the process.
The simple fact that Mesic had no idea that neither Maslenica, Medak, or Bljesak or Oluja were going to be launched, despite being planned 1, 2, 3 and 3 years in advance respectively, shows just how much power and influence Mesic really had.
Mesic was used and abused like the alcoholic streetwalker he is and kicked to the curb after he was goaded into believing his own power base and trying to stage a coup; after which, all Mesic, Manolic and Boljkovac loyalists (UDBa/KOSovci) were purged from the military and intelligence apparatus save Stipetic and Perkovic who smartly didn’t openly support Mesic and said scum, so they survived.
Tudman, ever the strategician, neutralized and then stomped them (Mesic & Co.), and they were banished into the political wilderness until the deaf, dumb and blind Croatian people resuscitated them (though the first election was a fraudulent one, of that I am convinced), twice.
Hence the situation we have today.
But, like I said, with the international connections of the traitors being as they were, he calculated, incorrectly I believe, that it was better to crush them and then let them revel in their own filth and squalor, which Mesic did for years bumming drinks at Charlie’s.
QUOTE: “And by the way, Mesic never hid his past, he never regretted his political history, I remember listening to a short wave broadcast in early nineties where he described with great pride his WWII role as a young Partisan! So, Mesic’s reputation and standing in present day Croatia is no surprise to me, nor should it be to anyone!” He told you what he was right out of the gate, and was accepted by Tudjman and HDZ et al without any reservations! Its only now that he has truly pushed tolerances to the limit that has he been justifiably vilified and scourged. ENDQUOTE
Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. Had Mesic not been elected in 2000, and say Budisa and a pro-Croatian coalition government were (despite Budisa’s own pie-in-the-sky views on things and total lack of geostrategic vision, especially in regards to Hercegbosna and his buying the KOS-AID line about “Croatian aggression”) voted into office, and the wartime military and intelligence apparatus was not eviscerated like it was by Mesic, it would have only been a matter of time before they faced justice. Alas, Croats voted for Mesic in a highly questionable election, and then an unfortunate unquestionable election.
QUOTE: “Ah, Manolic….the second Prime Minister of Croatia after Mesic , another Communist Partisan, high ranker in OZNA and UDBA and Tudjman’s right hand!- until he turned on him. Why no criminal proceedings against him? Why no purge of former Communists period?” ENDQUOTE
Like I said, keep your friends close, but your enemies closer. They were brought in, and by bringing them in neutralized, the hydra was cut into millions of littlel pieces, in the meantime Croatia built a professional intelligence and military apparatus unseen in this region ever before and likely never again, and won the war at all strategic and tactical levels.
It is obvious viewing the chronological order of events that they were used and abused to a) Neutralize the UDBa-KOS hydra b) By time to build the intelligence and military apparatus to an adequate level.
I still think Tudman should have tried them all and executed them as it was wartime – I think he could have weathered the storm, especially considering that they were Belgrade collaborators.
QUOTE: As for Paraga, go ahead and try him if there are grounds to do so! No one should be exempt from scrutiny especially on suspicion of treason! The key question remains – Why was there no political will to do exactly that? ENDQUOTE
Because of the importance of information warfare / diplomatic legitimacy in Tudman’s eyes. I think he was a little too concerned with the international fallout due to their interpersonal connections and sham “humanist” reinvention.
The fact is Tudman left Croatia everything, and Croatians, ever the short-term memory suffers, pissed on it all (albeit with foreign centers of powers funding and guiding the urine).
Hear, hear – therealamericro
VELEBIT,Million $ question is this”Why did Tudman claim in 1993 that Croatia has to pay loans of Yugoslavia,when we all know YU was dead and Croatia independent”There is no evidence of anybody asking Croatia to do so,nor evidence of any payments made.And who ever answers this question right will get real picture of Tudman’s greatness and leadership ,Also will get a chance to meat Mesic,Manolic and rest of them.
Amir Pilipovic – Just because Yugoslavia broke up it does nit mean is foreign debts were wiped off – after all the foreign lenders and people (for whose public benefit funds were borrowed as Yugoslav public loan) were still there.
Just a quick search of the net provided the following links to the issue however you might find better ones that will tell you that in fact Croatia did inherit part of Yugoslav public debt (as did the other ex-Yu states) http://zaklada-hanzekovic.ijf.hr/2000/bozic.htm http://slobodnadalmacija.hr/Hrvatska/tabid/66/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/178808/Default.aspx
Not sure what you mean by “whoever answers this question right will get real picture of Tudjman’s greatness? Perhaps you were sure that Croatia did not inherit any public debt from Yugoslavia – well it did and now we are all the more sure as to how great Tudjman was.
In terms of Paraga, well, these links speak for themselves:
http://www.hsp1861.hr/vijesti/970809haag.htm
http://www.hsp1861.hr/vijesti/200720vjhi.htm
I know for the fact that rest of ex Yu republics didn’t run to pay off Yu loans in 1993 nor they really cared about it … REMAINDER DELETED as inappropriate and offensive.
Well Amir Pilipovic it seems you know many facts that don’t match real facts and it would be nice if you stopped making assumptions and claims in your comments that you cannot back up, if you stopped using insulting words and innuendos against individual persons – your such comments end up in Trash that they are. As to Yugoslav debts and liabilities do please have a read of Secession agreement and variations of it, then go to each ex-Republics government departments and see who has been paying off Yu liabilities/debts and who has defaulted or who is waiting for a payout from final reconciliation on Secession from former-Yugoslavia. Here’s just a link on the matter but I am sure that you might have other sources but in this link scroll down to the section of SFRY liabilities and debts and the role seceding states played in striking agreements with various SFRY foreign creditors etc
http://www.dipublico.com.ar/english/yugoslav-agreement-on-succession-issues-2001/
And it would be nice if you stop deleting my comments ,You ask for evidence and then don’t let any of it through.Stop manipulation and propaganda since you claim to be so honest and truthful and truth loving.
Amir Pilipovic – there are only two possible ways of solving your complaint about deletion of your comments and these are:
1. You stop insulting and attacking individuals (that way this blog would not be at risk of defaming individuals) – you comply with rules and policies of this blog which are there for you and all very clearly put and if you cannot do that, then you go to 2. here
2. You start your own blog and write what you write in your deleted comments and publish them that way.
You do not seem to be able to provide any evidence without insulting someone in the same breath or often presenting something that is not objective evidence as evidence …
Amir Pilipovic stop throwing your bullying weight around give us some verifiable facts that ex-Yu states did not pay off any Yu debts they inherited or simply zip it. Also, please give us a reference where Tudjman claimed that Croatia has to pay off Yu loans or zip it. It’s clear to everyone except you it seems that ex-Yu states did in fact inherit Yu liabilities and debts and that Yu creditors would have demanded some payment or arrangements for payment etc. You have a big problem with blind hate against Tudjman and I guess your rage may be deepened as you discover that Tudjman is and was loved by the people that matter the most in Croatia’s efforts for freedom and democracy.
How am i going to give you facts when Ina dosen’t let it through.didnt you see my complaint,Nothing was offensive nor rude just the facts that put saint franjo in negative light.Why don’t you or Ina provide us with the fact that Croatia has paid any loans off in period 90-99 as saint claims.
Sorry Amir Pilipovic, I need to bud in here, but your deleted comments are not negative but utterly offensive and hateful. I do not mind people expressing negative light about Tudjman or anyone but that negative light must be supported by verifiable facts and not your opinion or thinking. If you want to express your opinion then do it in a civilised manner using words that do not place anyone in danger of defamation and vilification. You yourself have brought up the issue of Tudjman claiming to have to pay Yu debts and call him a liar. You failed to produce any verifiable reference to where, when etc Tudjman actually said that – you now want me to produce evidence to support your claims. You are an utterly ridiculous little person – I provided you with links that tell you that Croatia and other ex-Yu states did in fact inherit YU debts and liabilities etc but whether and how each state has gone about satisfying its responsibilities is not something that particularly interests me or this article. You brought the issue into the conversation to further your hate trail against Tudjman.
Sefer Halilovic and genocidal war crimes piggery in progress on tape that got away: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI1uXsXXCLE
The ICTY Court found that, while murders considered war crimes did occur at those places, Safer Halilović did not have command authority, being only an inspector, and that he cannot be considered responsible for them. The prosecution appealed the verdict. On 16 October 2007 the appeals chamber ruled against the prosecution appeal and confirmed the acquittal verdict rendered almost two years earlier by the trial chamber.
Huh, only an inspector!!!! A powerful one I would say even by just seeing this clip … unfortunate world where the truth gets hidden …
Well it’s the truth ,None of you even know that he was replaced nor that his wife and her brother have been killed by some members of ABIH.Even Alija tried to send him out to west because he couldn’t protect him.The reason for your bringing him in every single conversation is really simple ,He is out spoken ever since the end of the war and he was in Haage as a suspect war criminal.
I don’t know if you understand bosnian,croatian or serbian but this tape,link is exactly why Halilovic is free,And to be brutally honest i have no idea what he said that you find so offensive.
Can anybody tell me what Halilovic exactly said in this clip to make you believe he is war criminal or has done war crimes or even ordered them,How is saying not to kill civilians because its not who we are,it’s not what our religion is a crime.
bracop – You need to learn how to read and comprehend what you read, in terms of the chronology of the war, as I clearly and distinctly pointed out the systematic pattern of ABiH attacks that preceded the all out ABiH offensive in January 1993, starting in Dusina, that was the official start of greater Bosniak / Islamist / AVNOJ BiH Titoist unitarist aggression against the Croatian nation in B&H.
Second, you “conveniently” omit the Historijski Sporazum of September 1991, Alija’s “to nije nas rat” comment on the raising of Ravno and the savage massacre of Croats there in Oct 1991 (and the reason why HZHB and the HVO had to be formed, as the government of Sarajevo showed no interest in defending Croatian citizens of B&H, or B&H itself), and the fact that the HV and HVO began an offensive against the VRS in Posavina and in Central Bosnia the day after the non-existent “deal” in Graz, because THERE WAS NO DEAL.
In terms of that degenerate war criminal Halilovic, that KOSovac did nothing to prevent or prosecute troops who committed war crimes, thats what is wrong with the audio. He was made aware of the beastial war crimes and NEVER, NOT ONCE, EVER took any disciplinary measures against his war criminal hordes that he unleashed against Croatian civilians – the Neretva 1993 offensive made possible thanks to Halilovic’s deal with Mladic over Eastern Bosnia, from where 7,000 – 7,500 ABiH troops were pulled from the front lines against the VRS to engage in offensive operations against Croatians in Central Bosnia and North Herzegovina – this of course included the rent-a-artillery agreement with the VRS for bombing Croats in Central Bosnia and especially in Mostar.
My question was really simple and clear and yet you find it necessary to go around,Halilovic was replaced and was inspector or nobody ,nobody obeyed his orders ,nobody has listened to him.So im here trying to tell you that you are barking at wrong tree,He was in Haage and I hope you provided all the evidence when the time was right,You croats have to learn how to respect international community .courts.laws etc,Stop being NEBESKI NAROD because that title is taken by serbs.
This flick is for Amir and any possible Cviecari:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPIVnaSYItg
From the greater Bosniaks’ / Islamists’ / AVNOJ BiH Titoist Unitarists’ mouths to your eyes and ears.
Quote of the day:
“Bosna i Hercegovina je sredstvo, a ne cilj.”
Alija Izetbegovic Wordsworth
Therealamericro,DOGOVOR U GRACU has taken place 5/6/1992,where Karadzic and Boban have split BiH between themselves or serbian and croats,And we know that becouse they both have signed it. PART DELETED AS COMMENTATOR CLAIMING TO HAVE SOMETHING re Tudjman and BiH BUT FAILING TO PROVIDE LINK or OTHER EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE CLAIM …
You do realize that Operacija Lipanjske Zore and a massive HV/HVO offensive in Posavina (where the TO and Armija BiH sent not a single reinforcement the entire war) followed the non-existent “deal” in Graz.
If there was a “deal” struck, why the massive offensives and, at least in Lipanjske Zore, permanant territorial loss for RS / VRS?
Your logical acrobatics are amazing. Really.
The problem with Grac is not a deal they made or not,It should have been a top secret ,Boban even arrived in old beat up car with Zagreb plates on it,Somebody has had alerted foreign media and the media has surprised them both by waiting for them in hotel lobby,So both have given short interviews and said ‘There is not need for our guys to die,we are not going to get all we want’But anyways the media has run a story how you and serbs are secretly curving BIH without knowledge of the rest of people,The headline was “Croats are secretly curving BIH while playing a victim’.and it’s the problem now if you move to Washington Agreement and see how croats got nothing out of it ,you may be able to see negative impact of Grac.I hope you understand that when you play a victim and make a deal with a abuser at same time,You become same or one in eyes of international community.
Ah the media – braco pd – they managed to concoct stories out of a secret meeting… wake up – Serbs did manage to carve part of BiH for themselves and are still there and Bosniaks let them and are still letting them it seems. Perhaps because it is said that Bosniaks really miss Yugoslavia and were happy to be kept by the communist system. Food for thought but no room on this blog for this topic. Besides Karadzic and Boban had no real authority to divide anything, unless they were sparked on by the EU Commission’s ethnic division map of BiH
Ina ,I have fallowed your blog and can tell you that YOU HAVE DELETED,NOT ALLOWED COMMENTS TO WAY TOO MANY PEOPLE,and none of it was offensive,even remember a serb asking you WHY DO YOU KEEP DELETING MY COMMENTS,But anyways don’t you find it funny that you are ok with therealamericro,I mean he has used every offensive name in the book.
Amir Pilipovic – it’s beyond my comprehension how you could possibly know that a comment from another commenter that was deleted was not offensive!? Of course a number of comments have been moderated or deleted that is done to protect this site and to ensure persons written about are not offended or insulted. It’s not a matter whether one uses offensive words or not it’s a matter of how one uses them. It is not the same to say that someone seems to be like something and that someone is like something (without providing verifiable evidence to that claimed truth)… So, please, as I said – start your own blog and do not think that you have a right in telling people what they should do especially not if there are “Terms and Conditions, Disclaimers”etc provided upfront as they have been on this site. If you or anyone are unable to follow rules, be prepared to accept that others are not prepared to wear any uneasy consequences of your inability to follow the rules.
Ina i know becouse you have not approved many of my links.a stuff that is being used in Haage,things not written by me,I also know becouse you have allowed a link that explains how saint has stolen 1 billion $,it was there for a minute,I also know that you and a serb had dispute over the number of serbs killed in Jasenovac,he was trying to link a WIKI but you kept deleting it,after him asking you 10 times you have let it through.And finally there is no single link on any of your blogs that is negative to Tudman,don’t you ever wonder.And the reason for that is not becouse Tudman was perfect but becouse you manipulate conversation.
Amit Pilipovic whatever you say on this topic I have explained why comments are moderated or deleted. If you are unable to comprehend that is certainly not my issue. This site does not manipulate any conversation it simply stops a conversation that has no back up in truth, most of deleted conversations are similar to your or others’ claims about Tudjman stealing billion dollars but you provide no evidence that such claims have been proven in a court of law and I refuse to entertain your nasty innuendos, just like most readers won’t. Don’t know about which Serb you are talking about because I have no way of knowing who is Serb, Croat or Bosniak from the name they give themselves as commentators. If you are referring to the person who wanted to put a link to Vad Yashem Museum (not Wiki)about Jasenovac you will also see from my explanation that I did not let that link through because that organisation does not still write the truth about Serbia’s role as Nazi collaborator and the Milan Nedic’s governments role in extermination of Jews. I also will not put a link to any single reference on the matter because numbers of those killed in Jasenovac differ widely between experts. So if that is the situation, which it is, then I will not give one more space than to another – I would give links to all different sources about Jasenovac. All figures of Jasenovac victims are still estimates and estimates are not the truth; they’re just opinions. You are the one who ridicules Tudjman by calling him a Saint – and I will defend anyone not just Tudjman who is ridiculed in such mean and nasty ways of personal attacks. Why should I allow negative stuff on my blog about anyone not just Tudjman if that negativity comes from unsubstantiated speculations and hatred. You can do that if you want but not here on this blog.
RESPECTED BEAUTIFUL WOMEN AND MALE FRIEND!
FASCISM (fascia) resembles unison EFFECTS OF A NATION
Anarchism assumes that man is free to act, until it threatens their acts of another individual or a nation. Pierre Proudhon Jozeph concludes: “Justice is the power of the soul.” Power of the soul is a reflection of the order as is just. Order, work and discipline man force shrinks and lives (IB :). Order, work and discipline of power is collected and maintained. . . , Is to live by the rules of life, and justice proportion showing strength. . . compared – by works – sacrifices. Contrary to Proudhon, Lenin and his work Empirio, organized slaves matter against life, instigated by the evil that is really destroying and decimated many nations and cultures of the people with whom the tendentious experimented and force them to be pushed into Lenin – Russian boxes, which caused the tragedy and rivers of blood spilled, and all to be subjected “small and weak” Russia. This template is used literally and sister Serbia and thus behaved towards its neighbors, which is subjugated to the wishes and SPC. Lenin considered that materialism is a positive basis of atheism and the denial of religion. . ., No need to say how much material substance was a great friend of atheists of all time. . . Lenin said. That incentive and strongholds wrong, when there is no soul-spirit, there are no obstacles, why the name is not used to rob and kill millions of people, as did Lenin and Tito. Insofar state and party as a means to serve them to realize their wishes on the planet Earth. Croats your community, unity must be protected by the state as an institution, and not on behalf of some of Lenin, Tito. . . “State” laws and constitutions crashes fellowship. Destiny is not a mere predestination, but the commission. . . what voluntarism demonstrated in the field. . . Croatia does not destroy those who created it, but those who do not and will. So persistent committing to live by the rules of life – just to keep the Croatian community. . . a warning to be Lenin, Tito, Serbs i. . , Croats as crude traders in relation to the occupiers, who march through Croatian as materialists. If the war of liberation for the Croats was in 1990. year, what were the 1918th, 1945th, 1971st year. Here are the reasons for self-criticism and a new synthesis that the Croats have, and do not know lustrirati and be better on an endless road of life. Croats lack commitment and responsibility on behalf of the fate that justice is the name of …, the Croatians living in villages, plains, mountains and islands, and half of Croats living in exile, who were expelled guests – intruders when they arrived in the Croatian cities. If you stand just intruders in Croatian cities called citizens, as the Croats from the village. . ., As with those in exile 5 million, to be baptized or left of the cross. . . materialists, atheists, agnostics,. . .Getting back to the text message as Croats who think they are not a reflection of materialism, and deeds show that they are, however, not enough to accept the cross, which glows after sacrifice in the name of life. . Ivo Josipovic, Zoran Milanovic as formal representatives of the Croatian community, the obvious – the concrete and responsible, together with the church authorities. Croats are still in agony, under pressure, are not entitled to work in Croatia, which is more deadly than just the Croatian emigration, because the birth rate is a guarantee of survival. Croatian rulers in Croatia use stencils occupiers … and the community as a condition of every individual is treated as subordinate to the individual, which is a diversion. Thus, the Croatian Parliament, the obvious – the specific, recognizable as bad rulers from the secular and ecclesiastical authority and responsibility as the cause and biological extinction of the Croatian people. Materialists, atheists and agnostics individuals are hedonists can not resist his ego (selfishness is a reflection of materialism), and unconscious, complacent, like statues present their stunting and by means of public information, exactly as if Lenin and Tito continues its pattern ( junk) food. . . Man is difficult to relinquish old habits, and when the sight of a new and better al. . ., Defect or human virtue is that it can be used or habit, which materialists know and use on a sensory level – for himself. So get used to functioning and operatives UDB, officers of Greater Serbia, in agony. . . continue to worship the dead matter. Well, how and why it came about materialism, a worm that dissolves and Croatian being, especially since 1918th the year, with the state and the party as a means … willing or unwilling suggest lies, theft and murder … under the direction of the dark. Croatian naive idealist so and so, the rest of the invaders materialists persecuted and decimated, and the community was left without a leader of his people, has survived only by the grace and knowledge. Who is lying, the stealing and killing, inherent vampires, heartless things on. . . Which do bluffing. And as Croats realized that the man has no reason to fear impersonal figure, which actually have no power but to deceive and getting used to their needs. So they are. . . occupiers patterns of materialism and instructions of the Serbian Orthodox Church as a mentor, disrupted Croatian community, the 1918th to the 1941st year, and the 1945th up in 1971. years later than in 1971. to the 1991st years, are constantly on the Croatian territory waged aggressive wars – “scorched land”, and over the remains of their minorities modified styles disrupted Croatian homes, as hardened slaves of materialism. Similarly similar aims. . . or habit adjust. . . And self-critical, always earned adequately invested. Croats come in uninvited guests wanderers, vagabonds … so deliberately encourage trade, drugs and gambling, not work and production. Stores what Croatian safe water in despair, because they are based on lies, theft and murder, which control soulless materialists for the most heinous evil rewarded, as Lenin, Tito and others. . and honored by the “masses” as more killing followed the senior ranks. Criteria materialism pre eliminate sin committed. . . A devotee of materialism. . . fascism and anti-fascism are blur. . . to hide materialism and its holders, who are rewarded for lying, thieving for more, and most of the murder. . ., But the same deceived the soul are barking and barking will torment the dark side of the moon. Here’s how matter does not help, on the contrary collapsing foundations, which are read out in the palm of each individual as a sacrifice on the side of life. Just be self-critical, and the response follows a man making: himself and puts himself on trial, always himself. . ., Without self-criticism Man subsists of lies. . . to hell. What is needed, and the Serbian minority in Croatia and the Serbian Orthodox Church and that directs them to the rules of materialism. Among other minorities living in harmony with the Croats in Croatia, the Serbian minority habitually used for wanted to be above the Croatian people, and because of this behavior, did not deserve to be mentioned. And today only in solidarity with former Serbian Trabant Croats operatives Greater UDB, atheists and agnostics, as tendentious poisoner. See “miracles” when it comes to material wealth Croatian, again materialists – antifascists. . . trading the last 20 years, most were seized. Handsome in this segment are routinary fascism and demonstrate that neither then nor now welcome in Croatia because collectively as such undermines the foundations, and undermines unity Croats. . . , Agreed occupiers – fascists. What irony, along with uninvited guests, organized fascist have benefited immensely, while their Croats serve as subject for ridicule. Therefore, the Croats, which undermines the unity of the history, blame themselves. They realized that they need to restore order, work and discipline for life on an endless road. Recap on behalf of the future: Croatian janissaries are there, yet lustrated no converts, because for them as if they committed a sin still exists, because in the future biography and works should be the criteria – for Croats. Materialists do not assume bare existence, and is easily converted to traders, gamblers, which contradicts the rules of life as slaves to serve the illusion. . . and wars for profit if 1991 years was the liberation war in Croatia, as the war was fought on Croatian territory, 1918th, 1941st, 1971st, year and why … For example, the Croatian Borićevcu, Zrin and other places, the vampire Ball participated Djoko are Jovanić and Jovanka Budisavljević, they planted Janissaries Josip Broz, illiterate vagabonds, Lenin’s apprentice operative, representative of materialism. Anti-fascism in Croatia magnified when intruders create discord in Croatia, just because today we can benefit. Materialists, atheists, agnostics, and others. . . parties as a means to serve the good trade and dividing Croats home and homeland, by imputing to them the names of fascism – fascism, as well as traps, torch bearers of soulless materialism. . . In support of union Croat diaspora are not together with the Croats in Croatia. Who and why they are separated over fascism – fascism that still depopulated. And where is the Croatian emigration that is dreaming about returning a century … So Lenin-Tito and their followers are dark, violent causes victims emperors death, warning in agony. . . howling and barking at the moon, finally ending. Cities of liars and thieves especially without factories, sanctuaries. . . the same does not want to lustration, and responds to them, trade and darkness. . .,
http://koca111.blogspot.com/2011/12/sjecanje-na-dane-kad-sam-molio-boga-da.html
http://koca111-lucija.blogspot.com/2011/11/general-ivo-jelic-osnivac-i-prvi-ratni.html
Sincerely
The Halilovic-Mladic agreement was signed in May, 1993, fyi.
So much for the “deal” in Graz, after which HV/HVO offensives were waged in the Neretva Valley, liberating all of Mostar and Podvelez all the way to Stolac and Neum, as well as a Central Bosnian and Posavina HV/HVO offensive against the genocidal VRS.
Not a single TO or ABiH reinforcement was E-V-E-R sent to Posavina, not one.
Alija sold out Posavina so he could attack the Croats in Central Bosnia and in N / W Hercegovina.
How did HV do that when your claim is that Ctoatia didn’t do aggression on BIH,was never there,Agreement was signed in may/1992 and you did some fighting only in june,but it’s worth noting that none has crossed agreed borders,You have claimed that serbs are raping,killing .torturing and burning and yet have made the deal with the devil.Now from june /1992 – after Washington Agreement of 1994 you didn’t fight each other but ABIH.knowing that same serbs are burning Croatia down,even today you celebrate day of RS with Dodik and Serbs.AS of Posavina I have seen couple of documentaries and all of the participants blame Tudman including leadership of HVO.none has blamed ABIH or Muslims,Izetbegovic etc.
Therealamericro,You have figured out that Croatia has found it self in very bad place to be,So for that reason you are on a mission of evening things up using propaganda … REMAINDER DELETED – personal attack using assumptions about the commentator
Alija was never communist so this idea of yours how Bosniaks miss communists and Tito is kind a funny,We all know Tudman was product of communism and Tito,Today you say Ah media and just while back you blasted BBC for a single word,It sounds like you have couple standards you like to apply,Therealamericro is allowed to use every bad name and apparently Bosniaks can’t all while you claim to be honest,fair and square.Also I would say you have lost handle of reality because you obsess yourself with fantasy and illusion,Nor you have any respect for inter-national community,courts,laws etc,Do you even know the reason for all the Croats being in Haage.Don’t you see your own spin here.You even bless every single comment of Thereal.and most of them are a lie,full of hate,name calling etc.
bracopd – I’ll bud in here just a bit: the real truth of what Izetbegovic and Bosniaks were up to around the breakup of Yugoslavia and the plan to end up with BiH Muslim controlled at the expense of many victims etc is yet to come out – so far this plan actions behind it have not been treated openly and full – the truth is coming out soon I am sure.
Bracop: The HV was arming and training the ABiH and HVO – it was part of the signed agreement between Zagreb and Sarajevo from Spring 1992. The HV planned and led all of the major operations against the VRS in 1992 in B&H. Not a single successful ABiH operation without direct HV planning, support and or manpower, against the VRS the entire duration of the war.
The Weapons we all used ,including Croats was eastern European made not western,And the reason for it is USA,Germany Engand had embargo on weapons at the beginning of the war,So countries you should thank to are Turkey,Iran and Saudi Arabia,Also all the weapons intended for us were coming through Croatia,and it all was free,but you than have sold it to us,It’s the truth that we didn’t free any parts of BIH in 1992 but I can’t rebember you freeing any part of Croatia neither.The reason for us was not being armed etc,And by the way all of those you have trained ended up in HV anyways ,Its well known fact that 25000 k of Bosniaks were in HV.And to be brutally honest with you HOS has freed most of it 1992 not HV,HVO and we know they used to members of ABIH,Sounds like you got your facts wrong again.Also its worth noting after Oluja Tudman said”There is no reason for our guys to die fighting in Posavina because our people doesn’t live there.
GENERAL MILIVOJ PETKOVIĆ IN TOWN ORAŠJE
To even started topics Bosanska Posavina should start from the beginning, and ask yourself why DR.FRANJE Tudjman in Posavina sent an experienced General Milivoje Petkovic, why then Haag judged Croatian general, because you can not be in the ist time fucked and honest. Dr. Francis takes great care for the people of Posavina because he gave weapons and Command staff and people had Bosanska Posavina, criticize dr.Tuđmana to drop Posavina’s funny because birthplace best defend the host, except that there were volunteers from Figure Ship, Pozega and surrounding areas. As can be seen from the partial chronology of events in the first half of April in 1992., Wars in Bosnia and Herzegovina began well before the official start of the war, 6 April in 1992. year, when he attacked Sarajevo. Given that even in November 1991st was attacked and destroyed a village straight in eastern Herzegovina in Operation retaliation JNA, it could be considered the beginning of the war. Fights in Bosanska Posavina, which exploded in March in 1992. , also represent “war before the war.” But, as an example of the methodology of action JNA and Serbian paramilitary units can be taken Bijeljina, where the fighting lasted from 1 to 4 April 1992. Arkan’s paramilitary unit Serbian Guard began to attack the city, where they confronted a small group of members of the Patriotic League. They managed to break the resistance and began to mass executions, which were manifestations of “war madness”, but systematic removal of prominent people, as well as the Bosniak population. Operation in Bijeljina had a double task. First: Bijeljina is communication important, because it is the intersection of two arms which began Serbian attacks on BiH – sjevernobosanskog (Posavina) and eastern Bosnian (Drina) direction. Mastering Bijeljina, a town Semberije, allowing complete control of the region, providing inland towards Serbia, and thus logistical support. Control Semberije ensure the supervision of the lower course of the Sava River and the mouth of the Drina and Sava rivers. Second: The brutality with which the attack, its media coverage, parade smartness and demonstration equipment Arkan’s Tigers was mainly a function of intimidation Bosnian population. The attack was made on the eve of Eid, as another symbolic act. Bijeljina was the dress rehearsal before the open conflict. The busy Bijeljina visible form subsequent actions JNA and Serbian paramilitary units. This form is manifested in the practice of concentration of superior forces, backed by armored mechanized units and artillery. City slated for occupation would be surrounded by traffic and communication brought under control. Through the media local residents calling for the non-resistance, the most common use of the phrase “Yugoslavia” and “brotherhood and unity”. In the case of least resistance, the conquest of the city taking it upon themselves to infantry units was characterized by brutality towards prisoners and civilians. With the liquidation of the legal representatives of the government and prominent citizens started on ethnic cleansing, a paramilitary unit as a reward gained the right to strike. If there was a stronger resistance (which in practice usually provided local forces armed with personal weapons), infantry would care about, and called artillery to “soften the resistance.” Generally, Serbian forces largely avoided direct combat and have used indiscriminate artillery wherever possible. This way of using artillery Serbian General Mladic was later in the siege of Sarajevo defined as “couch mind.”
For Velebit: Who keeps the explosives in the basement of a seven-Ogulin?
However, this same police is very stingy in a statement that was just on Thanksgiving Day in a ogulinskog to Podravka sounded strong explosion, a fire broke out and that was in the basement from which it was billowing thick smoke found an arsenal of weapons and explosives that the entire building could blow! Specifically, in Croatia Zoran Milanovic equally in prison a man who carried him whistling as he is suspected of this copy of Al Qaeda! No investigative journalism about this, no television cameras who care! For Croatia, Zoran Milanovic these mysterious explosions in Croatian holy day, the explosion that nearly blew up a hundred people in one Ogulin to Podravka, it is equally difficult as trophy weapons Marko Perkovic Thompson! And it was surprising to him whistling in the holy Croatian town of Knin? Oh, they can not function without a verbal assault, they do not know without state violence, as she can not say no forces exist, as does the very foundation of the worldview embedded primordial hatred of the opponent and the opponent? That different! The one who just thinks differently and says it out loud! Are not even the Paris Commune of their Old Testament, the Communists everywhere and always showed to his rivals only know force calculated? What is the October Revolution than bloody violence? Stalin’s struggle against the kulaks than pogrom against the rich peasants? Bleiburg? Hebrang? Djilas? Goli? Croatian Spring? Tanks in Prague 68, tanks in Hungary in 1956., Poland 81? Nothing but low brutal, naked violence! By the way, I love a great, big, unmatched writer Miroslav Krleža and despise the poor, meager and frightened other Krleža who gave key intellectual alibi all this violence! However, the communists can not from your skin even 2013th, Croatian police under the baton SDP’s interior minister arrested in Knin man who whistled Prime Minister Milanovic! And the first news Radman HTV cut every whistle in the attached! It is this legacy Radman TV in Zagreb, which is so proud! They are Europe? They led us in Europe? And they understand what is Europe? So give me a single country in Europe where the police arrested someone whistling premiere? The 2013th! But the Croatian translation arrest someone 2013th, that means in 1946. Shoot him in the head, that means in 1971. throw him in jail. This is the same brain! It’s essentially the same process as when Racan cream party thrown in jail Gotovac Government, where he was welcomed by a guard saying that it should be remembered: ‘Damn dog mater whoever you brought me alive!’ It’s a party for the treatment of dissenters Vlado Gotovac then was nothing. He just thought differently than Racan. Arrest 40 years later someone was whistling SDP’s premiere, it means to stand firm with the hearse policy Racan 70s! It means to announce mass arrests tomorrow. Because the message of these arrests is as follows: exit the fall massively into the streets and start to boo the Prime Minister and his policies, the mass will arrest you, my dear Croats! That’s the real message of this arrest. Spreading fear. Police who arrested the protesters is the same police who had recently conducted searched the apartment Marko Perkovic Thompson seeking trophy Kalashnikov with which, it is alleged, he shot at the Chetniks this war.
http://koca111.blogspot.com/2011/12/sjecanje-na-dane-kad-sam-molio-boga-da.html
http://koca111-lucija.blogspot.com/2011/11/general-ivo-jelic-osnivac-i-prvi-ratni.html
Off course Bosniaks miss Tito,Yu and communism ,It’s why they have elected Tito’s General,communist and partizan Tudman,than Mesic and Josipovic,And all they do so far is visiting Monuments of Partisans to pay tribute to fallen heroes And Dragan Covic and HDZ celebrate the day of rs with there brothers serbs and dodik,even know they have been elected by Bosniaks.,But what bothers me the most is our refusal to extradite udbas Perkovic.Sounds like we took a stand for one of us for our own.But anyways im so glad for you croats becouse you have turned to democracy long time ago.
Amir Pilipovic please do not include me and many people in you “our” when writing about refusal to hand over Perkovic – there a many Croats who want him handed over for communist crimes – this blog has been more than clear on that issue in various posts and your attempt to belittle that by using “our” (meaning all) is mean to say the least.
You must be living in Lala-Land,I mean to say or think that Bosniaks are Tito and Communism loving when you know that Izetbegovic was never a communist nor a fan of Tito,The biggest communist in BIH was Mate Boban and yet it didn’t bother you to support,respect him.And to accuse somebody else of it when you know that Croatia is run by communist since 1990,Velebit has made the best point on Mesic,i mean he was a communist out of the gate and was honest and open about it, When he won election in 2000 people new it ,same with Tudman and Josipovic ,So it’s fair to conclude that Cro is not short on communists.Merkel says Cro doesn’t want to do so,i don’t think she would say well Ina and some other people want.
On communism generally Amir Pilipovic the fact is that many were members of the Party during Yugoslav times but the difference is which of those members abandoned communism truly in favour of democracy. The answer is quite clear so we do not need to go into it – read Tudjman’s speeches on http://www.tudjman.hr for example. Whether one can place Communists and Izetbegovic’s Islamic state declarations and orientation into the same bag is something worth considering.
thank you for all the visits and likes. This blog is a reality and history we seldom hear about
Thank you Nativegrl77 – you’re welcome and thank you on comment – yes I do try and extract issues to write about that affect many people and historical + current course. Pleased you find it so
Here are some “trenskrips” for Amir and Bracop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obxq7…ature=youtu.be
Who divided Bosnia with Milosevic: Alija Izetbegovic Wordsworth.
Well Ina the truth came out years ago,The problem is it doesn’t fit your narrative so you have decided to dance around it,And the place where you can find the best evidence that supports my point ,opinion is your own blog,The way you throw dates,numbers around here is nothing but propaganda,The cut out,edited clip of Halilovic here is a proof of war crimes,and same full clip was used in Haage in his defense or to say as a proof how he didn’t do anything bad or wrong.Then what I find mind blowing is your buying of that propaganda.The amount of claims you made and refused to back up with any type of evidence is a sing of your dancing,not excepting it for what it is.As they say everything goes.But anyways I don’t think the truth is replaceable with propaganda but hey you can try,You will succeed in convincing couple of fellow croats but you will never change the opinion of the world because anybody familiar with the war can clearly see through your propaganda.
braco pd – the only propaganda here comes from your and similar posts – not much corroborating evidence came from you – just words and your own interpretation … I or anyone needs to find evidence to support your view – that is your job. Ah, the truth you might want might have come out years ago as far a Bosniaks are concerned but that is in no way the full truth – and this blog is about seeking truth so I shall just pursue it. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT I HAVE NEVER EDITED ANY VIDEO OR HALILOVIC OR ON ANYONE. Perhaps you refer to one of the recent comments by therealamericro which had a youtube video link but it seems that video is now off the net and that’s not my doing at all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obxq7…ature=youtu.be…. So this stupid reaction of yours only tells the world how you spread your propaganda by accusing innocent people and making up lies about them just as you seem to be doing about other things related… I will continue going to any source I can find to demonstrate the real truth – no propaganda in that
Well I doesn’t come from me since I really don’t even try to post a link … DELETED … I know Tudman wasn’t saint nor perfect and yet I don’t see a single negative link that brings him down on the earth.And I guess it’s because you were a part of his team and hardcore follower of his ideology… DELETED … There are couple of cardinal rules you have to follow in your quest of truth finding,1 must do it from bottom up 2.there is no shortcuts.3.have to waste a lot of time and money 4.all evidence must be truthful and based on the truth.5.have a knowledge that every story has two sides.6.never try to buy evidence or witness testimony.So I have no idea on how you plan to overcome the Haage and all the judgments ,because it’s what will legally be used and taken as the truth,fact.I mean you can’t even edit Tudman’s wiki page and yet uncover the truth.
braco pd – well you should post links to sources that corroborate your views, if you don’t there is something very wrong with the way you present things. Certainly, the way the world sees it is that commentators should place links or name the source of information upon which they rest their opinion/ if they do that their opinion can be understood fully or better or have credible weight. I AM SO VERY PROUD TO HAVE BEEN A FOLLOWER OF TUDJMAN’s IDEOLOGY FOR FREE AND DEMOCRATIC CROATIA! In fact that WAS NOT TUDJMAN’S IDEOLOGY – IT WAS THE IDEOLOGY OF 94% OF CROATIANS WHO VOTED TO SECEDE FROM COMMUNIST YUGOSLAVIA, WHO VOTED TO ASSERT THEIR HUMAN RIGHT OF SELF-DETERMINATION – SO LET’S NOT FORGET THAT – I don’t hide that fact and never will. As to your points about how to get to the truth I do not accept your association of a story to the truth, for me the truth is only one. As far as the Hague court is concerned I do not need to overcome anything I accept final judgments (Appeal judgments) but I am also aware that courts have been wrong as well – hence the reason why death sentences have been abolished in most countries. And when/if a court judgment rests on substantial amount of testimony which can be false (perjury has been known to occur) or seems to be false that’s when justice is seen not to have been done and people dig further, try to come to the truth… that path is filled with determination for good but also determination of others to obstruct that path.
Defence Posavina can not be partial to watch and blame others for their own cowardice, besides BiH is a sovereign and independent state, Alija Izetbegovic, its president, and Dr. Franjo Tudjman had to take care not to violate the territorial integrity of Bosnia and Herzegovina and to help the Croats, and the words I just read that the late president sold Posavina are notorious lie, of those who have fled from their homes because of President Alija Izetbegovic wanted nothing to do for your territory for the entire BiH, there is a key issue, as well as the village right on the line that BiH and Croatian Serbs and Montenegrins were massacred. The mounting tension in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina led to a massive rearmament and personal growth in the number of incidents. According to data from the republican Interior Ministry in June 1991st year, 92,500 Bosnians reported that 110,400 guns, 131,900 Serbs reported that 157,200 weapons, 43,000 Croats and 51,800 registered weapons. It is believed that the actual number of gun ownership was almost three times higher.
The first sign of the war in Bosnia was destroyed villages Straight, in eastern Herzegovina, Croats residing in the Serbian environment, in November 1991st year. The village was attacked in the operation of the JNA in the aggression against Croatia in action in the direction of Dubrovnik. After the destruction of the village, due to political disorganization of BiH politicians and military unpreparedness and lack of organization, there have been incorrect statements by certain politicians, who were consuming discord and misunderstanding in the political leadership. Journalists JNA publicly lie and deceive people JNA action, you could hear the statements of some journalists that the village was not straight in BiH. The village was destroyed in war JNA and Montenegrin reservists in order to conquer Dubrovnik. Using the example of Straight, proven inability Republican leadership to prevent the use of the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina by the JNA as a field to attack Croatia. Placed a lie that all the time spinning on Serbian television has contributed to even bloodier war in which the so-called JNA played a dirty role in favor srpsog aggressor, can also be added attacks Serbian paramilitaries in Posavina, which are then Radio Television Sarajevo presented as marginal local conflict, with a visit to the site, then a high-ranking political Fikret Abdic and Biljana Plavsic. Similar actions have been undertaken by other politicians (Stjepan Kljuic) eg the failure of the column of tanks on Široki, deposit, which was stopped by the local population and politically organized individuals. The column was missed and tanks were later used in the actions taking Kupres. It is also interesting action taking relays on Mount Vlasic in 1992. year, which is directly transmitted on Channel Radio Sarajevo. Until taking the relay by the JNA, they could hear the comments of employees, as well as a call for help. After taking a relay broadcasting continued without comment. Since autumn 1991st until the start of the war over Bosnia and Herzegovina to numerous incidents. So patrols MUP BiH intercept trucks with weapons that no one knows “where they are going and where” reservists from Serbia and Montenegro, mobilized for war against Croatian when passing through Bosnia, often real excesses and opened random fire for intimidation of the population , there are roadblocks and self-styled “authorities order” exercise control traffic. More and more often are nocturnal shooting.
An increasing number of incidents, the arrival of JNA troops that were withdrawn from the Croatian and Slovenian, Montenegrin and Serbian reservists, have led to the republican leadership mobilized part of the reserve republican Interior Ministry, the only armed band which is held under the supervision of government authorities. With the mobilization of reserve police and the JNA began to conduct mobilization, although the republican presidency recommended Failure to comply with these calls. Calls JNA responded were mostly Serbs, and Bosniaks and Croats went to the reserve forces of the MUP. To maintain order, even, in agreement with the commander of the Sarajevo Military Region, General Milutin Kukanjec, established mixed patrols MUP BiH and JNA, without any significant results. Although the command of the Bosnian TO-om fall within the jurisdiction of the central government authorities, the JNA action relocation weapons TO under its control disarmed the formation. At the same time, a large number of cadres TO, as commander general Vukosavljević were Serbs, which is further hampered access mobilization lists. Confiscation of weapons of the Territorial Defence of the JNA did not go easily and without resistance. In municipalities with a majority of Croatian and Bosniak population, municipal authorities have successfully refused to talk JNA weapons and siege and taking stock of equipment JNA reached negligible stocks of weapons and materiel and technical equipment. Political conflicts between the SDA and HDZ BiH in these municipalities to start with the way the division of spoils, and organizing blockades of small warehouses in central Bosnia.
Their best defend your own home, it’s true that you can not always adequately defend its own fireplace as armed infantryman with a rifle in his hand without a technology that had the Yugoslav People’s Army-read Serbian Army-JNA could ništa.Hrvatski soldiers were wounded and killed and that enemies did not see, namely rockets and machine-gun fire from airplanes, helicopters JNA shelling from ships, the tanks, cannons, mortars …
National parties, regardless of the occasional bickering and recrimination about methods of agitation (eg, often tying green flag SDA and Croatian checkerboard) and fear that can not make a political alliance of Bosniaks and Croats against Serbs, however, have established a tacit alliance. Although the program and differing political, the main reason that it is connected and created idyllic harmony and tolerance was anti-communism, and a common desire that had been previously socialist government in the country comes to an end. The parties shared power along national lines, so that the President of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina elected Bosniak, originally Fikret Abdic, which is a place to Alija Izetbegovic. President of the Assembly elected Serb Momcilo Krajisnik, and the Prime Minister of Croatia Jure Pelivan. Power-sharing agreement worked during the race, in winning the elections, the division of functions, and thus is actually completed. Completion of the collapse of Yugoslavia, Slovenia’s declaration of independence started and brief war against the JNA continued to intensify the efforts on acquiring Croatian independence. In Croatia in the summer 1991st The war intensified conflicts between the JNA and the Croatian Army (then Serbian Ministry of Interior (MUPH) and units of the National Guard (IPN). JNA used BiH territory as a staging area for military operations and aiding rebellion of the Serbian population in Croatia, and all communications by rebel Serbs in the so-called. Krajina and Western Slavonia went through the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Upon the expiration of a moratorium on the declaration of independence, concluded with the mediation of representatives of the European Community in Brioni in July 1991., JNA declared partial mobilization on 3 October 1991, and Croatia on 8 October 1991. declared severing all connections with the rest of Yugoslavia. Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in response to a sequence of events of October 15, 1991. passed the Act of reaffirmation of the sovereignty of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. this act, it was decided to withdraw from the representatives of Bosnia and Herzegovina of federal authorities until an agreement is reached between all the republics that made up Yugoslavia. This was agreed by representatives of the SDA and the HDZ, while representatives of the SDS refused to act on the act passed.
At the level of the Presidency and the Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina rendered a decision whereby conscripts and reservists will be sent to the JNA. At the same time, mobilized the spare designated MUP BiH and directed towards Bosanska Gradiska and Bosanska Kostajnica to prevent possible clashes and attacks on Croatia from Bosnia. However, they failed in their task, because they were stopped by Serbian paramilitaries.
From mid-September to mid-November 1991st years, relying on the municipality in which he won power, establishing the so-called SDS. Serbian Autonomous District (SAO), which are in all their actions were independent of the central government. As a climax, followed by a referendum of the Serbian people, 9 and 10 November 1991st year, where Serbs voted to establish the so-called. independent Serbian Republic within Bosnia and Herzegovina, with the intention of joining the remains of Yugoslavia. Bosnian government in Sarajevo has put forward the view that a referendum is considered unconstitutional and void, so it took no further action. In response to the moves of the SDS, HDZ BiH on 12 November 1991st proclaimed so. Croatian community in Bosanski Brod Posavina and 18th November 1991st in breasts is declared and called. Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna (HZHB). SDS is the 9th January in 1992. The “autonomous region” formally declared so. Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina (later renamed the Republic of Serbian – RS) before the 25th Assembly of BiH January in 1992. The general made the decision to hold a referendum on independence. This was followed by the so-called declaration. Croatian Community of Central Bosnia 27th January in 1992. year. In the Serbian case, the creation of autonomous regions was transferring prescriptions rebellion of Croatian territory in BiH. In parts of the country where he won the most votes, and thus the term, the SDS-existing state administrative apparatus subordinate their goals and the municipality have him serve as a base for further war preparations. Where it won a majority, the SDS began to plan the creation of so-called. Serbian municipalities, which is suited to their vision of the divisions, which would create a special institution for the Serbs.
Quote “If Yugoslavia can not be a civil state, then you can not even one of her hereditary states. [1]”
(Milorad Ekmečić in favor of the ethnic division of the Yugoslav republics in 1992.) Surprise was the creation of Croatian communities that are reminiscent of the Serbian Autonomous Region. Both types of exclusive national territorial jurisdictions have emerged in areas where the National Party won a majority, and thus the power, so there was no real need for the founding of additional administrative apparatus with a pre-existing, which was under their control. The creation of such areas and communities explained the concern for the protection of the people. With regard to the constitutional rights of the Serbs and Croats in RBH was not violated, and their participation in the national government was proportionally, creating ethnic communities represented antiustavni trying to divide the state and the acquisition of territory by neighboring states maps and plans of the political leadership of Serbia and Croatian. Sami acts are justified by organizing individual people, governments, and non-compliance due to the inability of central apparatus, as well as self-defense due to the inefficiency of the republican Interior Ministry, and the disintegration of the Territorial Defence and the establishment of a number of paramilitary units on a national basis (Patriotic League, Croatian Defence Council, and a number of Serbian volunteer units, which are sponsored by the JNA and volunteer units from Serbia). Because of this act were clear messages leading politicians who spoke of the unity and indivisibility of BiH, and worked on the creation of an independent division of BiH authorities, particularly the police, government, military, communications and monetary system.
Reply to unconstitutionally create a new territorial political units in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was an attempt to state authorities at all costs preserve peace. Political parties SDS and HDZ, the SDA, the election results gained legality, with an assumed legitimacy to participate in the national government. With loyal citizens, there are currents that are intensively working to break the country. In a situation of unannounced military occupation, open preparations for defense were extremely difficult and disturbed. With obviously tough policy SDS, the role of the third partner in the government, the HDZ, was ambivalent. While part of the HDZ BiH (Bosnian tentatively titled) worked to stabilize the situation in the country (the referendum on the independence of the country, taking part in the defensive effort), the second part (tentatively titled Herzegovina) is pulling moves that have contributed to the destabilization of the country (making Croatian communities, negotiating with extreme wing of SDS, whose peak meetings Boban-Karadzic in Graz). In such a situation, an open opponent and unstable ally, SDA insistence on maintaining peace at any price is shown as a logical choice. Subsequent review of the activities of government representatives indicated that the period before the war made use of a number of international contacts and ask for help. It is right to say that the main strategic goal was to obtain international recognition, after the fulfillment of the conditions set for the recognition by the European Community. That BiH has not gained international recognition before the war, it is questionable whether it is right, given the intensity of aggression, managed to achieve during the war.
As its well known throughout history Communism/socialism needs discontent to gain their undemocratic rule. If theres no unrest and a strong Catholic culture like Croatia, Ireland or Poland ,they’re behind all thats destructive through conspiracy etc
Well said JoeGlocken
I was at the celebration of Croatian victory, just today I wonder what happened to all the fervor Croatian military victory of 1995
Sokol is a cry erupted over Peter’s Field Svilaja, thundered the voice of the first Croatian president Franjo Tudjman, prayer and cry to God and Croatians around the world, with hundreds of thousands to Heaven and Our Lady of raising their hands. Eve, of course we will not blame you used what “first” for the sole Croatian president, right? Can this be interpreted as a belief that we will soon have another! During the talks, one question was why I write so much about Thompson. Even at the first celebration in Cavoglave gave Thompson book I wrote to him that one of the greatest living Croats. Today, many state-building Croats in their texts mention Thompson, and the editors put it in the title – aware of his reputation. Eg See text brilliant columnist Zvonimir Hodak, Rampage handful of 150 thousand nationalists Cavoglave there deliberately not invited Bora Corba, Ceca, Bajaga … We are witnessing how Thompson did his songs and always seems to be young and now feel proud to be Croat, as what we felt at the time of the Father of the Croatian state academics Franjo Tudjman.