Friday 23 August was the European Day of Remembrance of victims of totalitarian regimes/ Nazism and Communism.
“Millions were killed during World War II and more suffered under totalitarian regimes for decades after the war ended. To commemorate these victims and to make sure that we build our future while remembering our past, 23 August is the Europe-wide day of remembrance of the victims of all totalitarian and authoritarian regimes…
Today is a day to reflect upon and draw lessons from the most devastating chapters of European history. Preserving the memory of the crimes committed by totalitarian and authoritarian regimes is the only way to show younger generations that democracy and fundamental rights are not a given, but the result of a painful history. Keeping the memory alive is a way to ensure that Europe’s people can never be divided again. Totalitarianism has no place in Europe”, said European Commission Vice-President Viviane Reding.
In Croatia, though, president Ivo Josipovic posted a very different message on his Facebook page to mark this Day of Remembrance of victims of totalitarian regimes. His Facebook message clearly leads one to conclude that he has significant difficulties in shedding his inclinations towards communism, his lack of resolve in separating totalitarian regimes from the democratic ones.
His Facebook message includes the following statement: “Ahmici, Bleiburg, Jadovno, Jasenovac, Kampor, Krizancevo Selo, Ovcara, Paulin Dvor, Sarajevo, Sijekovac, Srebrenica, Tezno… Upon this horrible and long string of pain, upon tens of monuments and unmarked graves I paid homage to victims of war, of totalitarianism and hatred, deeply believing that seeds of new evil must never sprout from their mounds…”
Here, in the name of totalitarian regimes’ evil, Josipovic lumbers together the crimes of WWII Nazism, the crimes of WWII and post-WWII Communism and the crimes of 1990’s war in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina! While the crimes of Nazism and Communism count millions upon millions of murders and exterminations of innocent people, the war in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina counts an estimate of about 150,000 (including soldiers killed). While Nazism and Communism were totalitarian regimes of oppression, this certainly cannot be said for the underlying political motives of war in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina unless, of course, Josipovic wanted to say that the victims of this war were in fact victims of communist crimes, i.e. communist Serbian forces brutally attacking those states of former Yugoslavia that wanted out of communism?
Somehow, I do not believe that Josipovic had the latter in mind when he wrote the deplorable Facebook message. What is evident from the list of places he entered into his message is that Josipovic has, by association with places of crimes, likened the 1990’s Croatia’s Franjo Tudjman, Serbia’s Slobodan Milosevic, Bosnia and Herzegovina’s Alija Izetbegovic to Hitler and Stalin!
This deserves utter condemnation for it demonstrates just how abysmally low a president of a nation can stoop in his avoidance to acknowledge fully (and in earnest) and prosecute the known and horrendous communist crimes committed over the innocent people of his nation.
To serve such travesty of justice upon his people at the time reserved to pay homage to victims of Nazism and Communism is beyond contempt in my books. To serve such travesty of justice upon the plights for self-determination and democracy, for which Croatian people were forced to defend their bare lives from Serb (Yugoslav) aggression in Croatia during 1990’s, is unforgivable, even if it may be politically fathomable when one knows that he comes from die-hard communist pen, much of which was against disintegration of communist Yugoslavia in the first place.
Back to Viviane Reding, and associated matter (communist crimes) , in one of my previous posts I wrote about the EC’s demand that Croatia amend it’s rushed law regarding extradition of it’s communist crimes suspects (politically motivated murders of Croatian nationals by communist Yugoslavia’s operatives). The deadline given was 23 August but the Croatian government kept delaying its reply. Finally, on Wednesday 28 August, Croatian media reports that its government has sent a reply to Reding, stating that it would amend the law on judicial cooperation in criminal matters with EU member states, popularly dubbed Lex Perkovic, with regard to the time limit for the enforcement of the European Arrest Warrant (EAW), and that this would happen under regular procedure. But extraditing a communist crimes suspect will not it seems come without a further fight in Croatia. There’s a matter of statute of limitations that needs to be addressed as well.
—
Since it won it’s freedom from communism, since it won its bloody battles for democracy towards the end of 1990’s we have watched the Croatian nation falling under the spell of liars, fog merchants and thieves. For the sake of so-called reconciliation we have seen attempts to blame the victim for the crime; we have seen the equating of victims with the aggressors; we have seen planned political attempts to criminalise the right to defend one’s life and the right to self-determination… we long for the day when justice will be served for victims of all totalitarian regimes because that is the day when true peace and reconciliation will start blooming.
I guess, no one imagined for a moment that transition from totalitarian regimes (Communism in this case) into democracy would come easy. But also, few imagined that it would be so perfidious as it has been so far in Croatia. Ina Vukic, Prof. (Zgb); B.A., M.A.Ps. (Syd)
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Reblogged this on Ann Novek–With the Sky as the Ceiling and the Heart Outdoors.
Thank you Ann for reblogging this.
This is a very strong and stand up article. I am hopefully that the Croatian people can move into a New Democratic political life. My hope is for the people to learn the joys of lining free. Actually, no one is free until all people are free.
Yes Barbara – my line of thinking too – you know when in late 1980’s I became active in support of democracy in Croatia (from Australia) the foremost thought that was on my mind was that I would love the Croatian people to have and enjoy the opportunities of freedom and self development, thereby furthering betterment of all, just like we enjoy abroad… I still want that because everybody in the world deserves that but many do not know how to assert such freedom and opportunity given the horror of oppressive histories.
Which support one can get from diaspora Croatians in Australia?
Bliblablu – depends on the asking
What joys of living free? Croatian people are more oppressed and occupied than EVER before! The whole country was plundered and still is by the same extremist mafia that occupied all government systems and took all companies and industries, the corruption is huge and there is no law to get us rid of mafiosos (names Deleted). Our people have no freedom. Before babbling about freedom, how about coming to Croatia and talking to intellectuals and journalists (not system privileged ones), and people on the streets of larger cities that aren’t primitive or stupid?
I would but I am disabled. I am of Croatian descent. I have a friend blogger who I have been reading for quite a while. Perhaps I will be able to begin reading your perspective also. In harmony, Barbara
Thanks Barbara for your input. I can understand Tutu and his suggestion people should come to Croatia and talk to journalists etc, it is an unfortunate reality that not enough people including journalists actually “go for it” and bring out both the criticism and praise but I think that most do not because of fear of reprisals of losing jobs etc (that’s what decades of communism did), mainly factual reporting is their job but not analyzing the facts and giving an opinion. It’s a shame that there does not seem to be a widespread freedom to express opinions but the situation is getting better, young people in particular are clever and intelligent and I believe they will make a positive difference.
You don’t sound as negative as Tutu did. How bad is it? What can myself and others do to help? Harmony and peace, Barbara
Barbara, perhaps I do not sound as negative because I do not depend on the system for survival, for a job, for a better future…but I am an individual of fair independence whose family fled communism in the fifties but who is still strongly tied to that land and people. To me I can see corruption everywhere – heck even the US has its major share in it. While there are a lot of positive things in Croatia one issue remains so very pertinent: to root out the corruption and political elitism that is there as much of the remnant of totalitarian regime that ruled for five + decades and that is difficult. So the way I see it, much more effort from everyone need to be invested in striving for change than in giving into a kind of defeatism or helplessness.
Thank you for explanations. Grandpa and grandma came here when the communists began to arrive. If you don’t mind how did your family survive? Hug, Barbara
Survival under communism would have been impossible or simply too harsh and impoverishing for those who openly did not accept communism – one simply could not get the opportunities to better oneself, so like multitudes of others we survived and grew in the West (Australia). Once Croatia seceded from Yugoslavia and communism much of the family returned “home” because being a first generation migrant does mean you live a parallel life daily – you carry in your heart your original homeland… others stayed in diaspora due to life’s circumstances but keep the love and care for Croatia close to the heart. We all want Croatia’s people to have the opportunities for betterment of life’s circumstances that we had and have in a full democracy.
Thank you for sharing your time and the facts. I think of you as a good friend. Peace, Barbara
Thank you Barbara, likewise 😀
Widespread corruption is a big problem Tutu and although some individuals are being prosecuted or investigated it does not seem to be enough. Croatian people on the whole are intelligent indeed and that is why they need to turn up at elections in masses and vote in the new and uncompromised candidates, instead of not voting and see where that leads then – to my view it would lead to a fresh political scene and slowly get rid of the elite.
Reblogged this on idealisticrebel and commented:
Please read this well written article.
Thank you for reblog Barbara
Ina ,I think that you refuse to except for some reason the fact that Croatia is being run by communist for ever,was never run by democratic person nor knows all that much about democracy.We know Josipovic and Mesic are communists because they never tried to downplay it but in a matter of the fact said it or did tell us through there actions they are communists or communism leaning.We also know Tudman was a partisan,communist and Tito’s General,but you find him to be so democratic and freedom loving without any proof of it,If you just pay attention to his cabinet you would find hardcore communists ,Susak used YU passport to travel,even to come to Croatia in 90 and yet you claim he was anti-communist,anti-tito and anti-system and some claim he was on UDBA’S black list,The biggest communist in BIH was Mate Boban etc,So nobody in Tudman’s cabinet had anything to do with democracy nor it’s rules and yet you never find any time to blast him for it.As I said to you in previous comment ‘Croatia will be run by communist for the next 20 years’. because change will never come from within,inside but outside meaning diaspora will have to produse a person to do it slowly but surely.The people from diaspora who came back home in 90 didn’t do all that good under Tudman’s rule.some even got killed.
braco pd – I or my readers do not need any lessons from you regarding transitioning from communism because you simply disregard the fact that its been written many times here on this blog that while Croatia inherited communists from former Yugoslavia the difference is enormous between those communists who were/are prepared to change their ways and abandon communist hopes and ideals ( TUdjman was one of these LOUD and CLEAR) and those that do not want that, who are die-hard communists (Mesic was/is one of these loud and clear while Josipovic seems to be unsuccessfully fighting it internally). So, you braco pd go to Croatia’s parliament (Sabor) website or to tudjman.hr and read Tudjman’s speeches from the early 1990’s. I refuse to pollute this blog with any further similar comments from you on this matter. I refuse to allow you to pollute the truth on this matter with your ridiculous spin. So be warned.
I am not giving lessons to anybody nor I am spinning stuff here ,I am just telling the truth,and if you find it not to be you can reply with the facts to prove me wrong and to make your point,Instead you have chosen blasting ,accusing me etc.Now to reply to your comment ,You simpy can’t be communist for years and become a democratic over night,specially if you have Perkovic,Susak,Boban ,Mesic,Manolic on your team or in your cabinet,and it’s really my point.And then if croats hated communists so much they would stop electing them ,I guess it’s the same problem as In every country where mostly old people votes.
braco pd – but you are trying to give lessons for something you do not seem to either accept or understand. Without former communists Croatia would not be free BUT that is only with the fact of work of former Communists like Tudjman who saw and experienced first hand the wrongs of communism and turned the page in his life bravely – abandoning communist ideals. There were many like that around him but there were also those who pretended. Croats do not necessarily hate communists because there were many Croats who were members of the Communist party during former Yugoslav times – that is a fact of all former communist countries. But what is hateful is that progress away from communist ways is slow in Croatia and you cannot blame Tudjman for that. He has been dead for 14 years; he set the terms of reference and suggested strategies for development but, hey, others thought they could do better and look at them now! Not much to show! So our battles continue and they are not hatred but anger at obstructions.
braco pd, dude you are messed up. It seems you are just a hater. Tudjman was a democratic and a great Croatian hero who freed his country and people from both communism and foreign domination. Under the most difficult indeed impossible circumstances where others would have failed he succeeded. During war even in the great democracies like in USA and Britain, democratic rights and freedoms are curtailed during war and during times of great threat – Patriot Act in USA. So, do yourself a favour, open your eyes and your mind…and stop being a hater. I can only praise Tudjman for what he accomplished with so little resources and so much opposition and hostility…no army, no weapons, international arms embargo, diplomatic opposition, political opposition by the international community, hypocrisy of western values, treachery within his own people, a wrecked economy and refugee crisis all while fighting the Serb dominated and controlled army which was Europe’s 5th largest army and their puppet maniac paramilities that over took 1/3 of Croatian territory and systemically murdered, forcefully expelled, raped and tortured Croatians and destroyed homes, properties and purposefully destroyed all Croatian cultural and religious sites to wipe out any trace of Croatian civilization. What a great leader and man Tudjman was…the future will treat Tudjman with great respect and dignity and will expose the jackals of the EC/EU and the evilness of Serbia.
Google translate of comment by Alyosha:
Good morning!
I watched the game on TV
AUSTRIA VIENNA – Dinamo Zagreb
in UCL play-off and I was deeply impressed by
dedication and combat power Croatian team!
Unfortunately, dreams Dinamo Zagreb fans
were dashed right at the end of the game
Austria Vienna and went on!
I wish to go in groups Dinamo Zagreb UCL
and even pice with Steaua Bucharest
because I had the opportunity to see live Zagreb beauty and hospitality of its people during the match between two great teams but
I was going to be! I’m really sorry!
To my great joy, Steaua Bucharest (Romania)
groups will play in UCL against Chelsea, Schalke 04 and FC Basel and is likely to gain access to Spring!
(http://aliosapopovici.wordpress.com/2013/08/29/)
Forza Dinamo Zagreb!
Forza Steaua Bucharest!
Sincerely and respectfully,
Alyosha.
Reply: Thank you Alyosha and greetings to you
Indeed Sunman – Tudjman was a great man if for nothing else then for iron courage to stand up and say enough is enough of communist oppression and fear mongering! But he was a visionary too – he saw and wanted a better life for all Croatians no matter who or what they were and there also was his strength.
Well dude let me start with this fact which you will most likely dislike DELETED DUE TO REFERENCE TO COURT CASE AS FINAL VERDICT WHICH HAS NOT YET RECEIVED A FINAL VERDICT …Today Croatia is what and how it is thanks largely to Tudman,If you review education of top people in Tudman’s cabinet you will find that many of them are not qualified ,uneducated and unable to hold that specific position.And the most disturbing part is All of them have been hardcore communists,So it’s safe to say you or diaspora have been nothing but cash cow to Tudman and you like that way.Iran,Turkey and Saudi Arabia have helped Croatia the most in period 1990-95 mony,weapons wise ,which is another proof that Tudman didn’t care about democracy ,If you ask people who had to deal with him,Albright,Zimmerman,Holbrook,Galbright etc none of them will compliment him but tell you ‘If Tudman was alive he would be in Hague right now”You are one of those who believes in magic wand.
braco pd – then according to your evident belief that Tudjman is to blame for what others did anything your neighbour or your family members do over which you have no control is actually your fault! Give us a break from your hate please. As to other countries helping Croatia at the time there is no doubt that it’s your belief that no one should have helped Croatians in their fight for freedom from oppression of communism but everyone should have watched them while they were being slaughtered. You certainly have a very narrow view – in the principles of international aid there is the concept of “responsibility to protect” i.e. assist others who are threatened by a stronger power… look around you at what’s happening in the world today and you will see the “responsibility to protect” (humanitarian aid or military or other intervention) at work. Albright, Holbrook, Galbright etc which you mention stand on opposite sides to those who had differing views so in fact who cares what they said as long as Croatia has its freedom. And, oh, diaspora was no cash cow to Tudjman but to Croatian freedom. I’d be that any day, without a single moment of hesitation… and by the way it was not Tudjman who thieved his way through that cash cow, it was the die-hard communists around him who went around and pocketed for personal use the cash that was meant for Croatia…
THE DELETED PART OF ONE OF YOUR COMMENTS HAD TO DO WITH COURT CASE AGAINST THE SIX FROM HERCEG BOSNA WHICH IS NOT COMPLETED BUT ON THE TOPIC OF INTERNATIONAL AID ETC HAVE A READ OF THE PAPER VIA THIS LINK – THE MORAL HAZARD OF INTERNATIONAL AID – THAT REALLY ANALYSES POLITICS OF BOSNIA AND PARTICULARLY THE BOSNIAN MUSLIM SIDE – TAKE YOUR COAT OF HATRED AGAINST TUDJMAN OFF AND LEARN A BIT MORE http://www.ukrainianstudies.uottawa.ca/pdf/Kuperman%202008.pdf
Sunman:
I would point out the fact that the entire war in Croatia, Serb ultranationalist politicians were freely spewing their hate speech in Croatian newspapers, in Croatia’s Parliament, and on Croatian TV.
Vesna Pusic hosted multiple symposiums for foreign journalists, comparing Tudman to Hitler (in speeches and in her agitprop writings for Erasmus), all the while the valued guests from neighboring Serbia were SANU signatories and Milosevic regime propagandists.
Sham human rights groups were openly collaborating with the Milosevic-ordered, created and financed “Veritas” sham NGO that fanatical Milosevic, Martic, Babic, Hadzic, Mrksic, Perisic, Stanisic and Simatovic Joint Criminal Enterprise participant Savo Strbac, one-time “Krajina” propaganda-information minister and wartime “Krajina” Secretary, ran from ethnically purified of non-Serb Knin from 1993 on.
No state ever in all of human history ever allowed this during wartime, ever.
For anyone to even suggest that Croatia under Tudman during the war was anything but absolutely free is not just an obscenity, it is a bold faced lie.
Of course Croatia had communists or former communists when it started its path to democracy braco pd. There was no other choice of people for that, indeed who better than a communist to instigate change away from it. Your hatred of Tudjman is evident, you seem to blame him for everything, you have a right to your opinion but the truth is not on your side because Tudjman had the best intentions and plans to create a democratic state but he was helpless in the face of those around him who pretended they wanted democracy and move away from communism so they could stay in power …you cannot blame Tudjman for what others did around him, he could not be in every place at the same time. Go to Croatian parliament Sabor webpage and find Tudjman’s speech from 30 May 1990 – opening of new Croatian Paliament. He said among many great things: “…all those people who are tied to the past and who are confused by democratic movements and traditions to which they are not accustomed, do and will do everything in order to obstruct the realization of our goals, to inhibit and compromise the introduction of the rule of law system, order, work and morality… Luckily for us, and them as well, they must quickly come to understand the general internal and international circumstances, especially the omnipresent unavoidable collapse of the real Socialist system that will render their scenarios as futile historic anachronisms. That, of course, does not mean that we can afford to underestimate the dangers from different forms of threats, blackmail and even provocation which come our way almost daily from anti-Croatian and anti-democratic lairs and headquarters. On the contrary, that has to motivate us even more to jointly, all of us, and each individually, do everything so that reason, freedom and progress conquer passions, the rage of darkness and backwardness”. Tudjman had abandoned loyalty to communism years before that date while Mesic and many others had not – they stayed near Tudjman like repulsive parasites for personal gain, not for Croatia
Good one Miso Sorbel
I have just replied to Sunman and pretty much addressed your confusion,But anyways let me try to explain to you too,One thing that could have been done is giving some top,key positions to well educated diaspora guys who came home in 1990 to help,not only well educated but with all the knowledge of Democracy,people who lived in USA,GB,Australia for the bigger part of there lives.I will give you couple facts and let you use common sence,All of above mentioned well educated people did horribly in Tudman’s time,many others who came home to help have been killed,I would never have Mesic,Manolic,Susak and many others in my transition government,I would never name Manolic a head of SIS,Mesic,Susak would never be Ministers of any type.Bus drivers,pimps and criminals would never be generals in my army etc,etc,Tudman did all of the above things which you can link to dictator,communist but do me a favor by not trying to link it to democracy unless you believe in magic wand.
braco pd – this about says it all about you… you simply choose not to acknowledge the circumstances from which Croatian plights for freedom and democracy can and within which they had to fight for it.The magic wand is what you hold as a would be general after the battle … if Tudjman was a dictator then why the hell did the ones you uphold stay at his side? You know why? Because it was the vantage point from which they could best operate against him and obstruct and sabotage his plans … Why did 94% of voters vote for democracy? Did he force people into voting? Whatever you do, do not lose sight of that.
Why don’t you go to youtube and enter TUDMAN O JOSIPU BROZU TITI,and see for your self what exactly Tudman said about Tito … deleted as inappropriate
Amir Pilipovic – as far as my search on youtube goes Tudjman did say Tito was a clever politician and was respected by the West for mounting opposition to Stalin (which at times of Cold War was undoubtedly a great plus for the West) but he also said ” as for the negatives, Tito is responsible for these include him introducing communism, responsibility for the communist regime and for all the crimes of the communist regime not only in war but also after the war…”
Great text, Ina. The last sentence caught my attention, precisely, the word you have used in describing the Croatian path from communism/socialism to democracy: “perfidious”. This is exactly the way it was…and still is. Hopefully, not for long time as these things with the Perkovic case are unfolding…
btw. will post the link on some forums here in CRO.
Thank you Klara for your feedback – am glad I’ve hit the nail on the head – transition from communism is something I am most keen to keep an eye on
This Yugo loving excuse for a politician, should be grateful to every man, woman and child who took up arms to defend Croatia in it’s time of need. To some how he connected Tudjman declaring our first president as no better than Hitler and Stalin is a travesty. Where was this individual when Croatia was burning and it needed leaders?. I will tell you!, probably hiding under his wife’s skirt while real heroes were laying their lives for his freedom. He should shut up and start defending Croatia as he should and not be critical towards the real heroes..Enough said.
Thank you Branko Kramaric it is indeed distressing to see what Josipovic said or inferred regarding war of independence of 1990’s. We can only stand strong and proud despite his words, after all presidents come and go and people stay.
@ Buna dimineata !
Am urmarit la televizor meciul
AUSTRIA VIENA – DINAMO ZAGREB
din play-off-ul UCL si am ramas puternic impresionat de
daruirea si puterea de lupta a echipei croate !!!
Din pacate, visele fanilor echipei DINAMO ZAGREB
au fost spulberate chiar spre finalul partidei
iar Austria Viena a mers mai departe !
As fi vrut ca DINAMO ZAGREB sa mearga in grupele UCL
si chiar sa pice cu STEAUA BUCURESTI
caci as fi avut ocazia sa vad pe viu frumusetea orasului ZAGREB si ospitalitatea locuitorilor sai cu ocazia meciului dintre cele doua mari echipe dar,
n-a fost sa fie ! Imi pare sincer rau !
Spre marea mea bucurie, STEAUA BUCURESTI ( ROMANIA )
va juca in grupele UCL impotriva lui CHELSEA LONDRA, SCHALKE 04 si FC BASEL si are toate sansele sa acceada in PRIMAVARA EUROPEANA !!!
( http://aliosapopovici.wordpress.com/2013/08/29/)
Forza DINAMO ZAGREB !
Forza STEAUA BUCURESTI !
http://youtu.be/H2KynyYXiP8
Cu stima si respect,
Aliosa.
Hello my friends and Wpler students.My Wpadresse has changed please write an email with your email address you all me briefly thank you…
Will find you in cyberspace andrea – thanks on visit and comment 🙂
Hello my friends and Wpler students.My Wpadresse has changed please write an email with your email address you all me briefly thank you…
They come to my site?
CONGRATULATIOS !
BUN VENIT CROAȚIEI ÎN UNIUNEA EUROPEANĂ !
Greetings Lucian! Thank you
Braco pd, great leaders make the most of what they have to work with. Tudjman was able to work with ‘hard core’ communists and create an independent and democratic Croatia. If you take a sports analogy, he took a losing team, and with the same players created a winning team. Also if you ask all those people you mentioned and asked them if they wanted an independent Croatia, they would say they did not want Yugoslavia to disintegrate and did not want an independent Croatia. Their dishonest policies certainly confirms this. Unfortunately, facts and situational context are completely lost on you.
One of many problems of yours is exactly this one ‘Who cares what USA and ICTY say’ when you know what they say is really only thing that matters … part deleted as inappropriate
The problem is not in me braco pd but in you! I did not say “who cares what USA and ICTY say” – I said “Albright, Holbrook, Galbright etc which you mention stand on opposite sides to those who had differing views so in fact who cares what they said as long as Croatia has its freedom…” And that is VERY DIFFERENT to how you interpret that which of course has nothing to do with facts of my comment. My comment clearly suggests that there were others besides Albright, Holbrook, Galbright who had something to say about Tudjman and they were of opposite views to these three. Suggested reading: http://www.tudjman.hr who said what about Tudjman – you will some from USA there.
Its great how everyone forgets to mention Jacques Klein’s statements on Tudman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hTi33KEyYk; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvK1M3zgyYs
Lets not forget self-made multimillionaire businessmen Gojko Susak who, along with Tudman, achieved just about every tactical and strategic objective he had for Croatia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDrs8JQTWu0
Lets not forget the amnesia of convenience regarding Klein’s personal testimony regarding Alija’s dividing of Bosnia Herzegovina: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PKGxHTmI4U – unlike Mesic at Karadjordjevo, Klein actually took part in the conversation with Izetbegovic and himself personally listened to Alija’s admission of trying to divide B&H.
As well as actual legitimate and uncorrupted politicians like Budisa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um0ciQS66Jc
And Gyorgy Csoti and Leoind Kerestedžijanc and Jacques Klein again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO1kjBPVmwM
Klein: “His place in history is secure.”
; – )
There is good old saying ‘a buck stops with me’ Employers are responsible for actions of there employees,meaning if a person gets run over by drunk or irresponsible employee at place of work,he would sue a company not employee ,it’s same with army and you know it ,so why don’t you apply same standards to every single issue.I do find it little strange that western countries weren’t willing to do more for Croatia ,BIH especially at the early stages of the war,i mean they even had weapons embargo,
braco pd – the extent of employer liability is not as simple as you put or try to convince people that it is. There are the issues of employee “willful misconducts” and remedies for that. If an employee willfully breaches policies and procedures the employer has and of which the employee is aware then there are serious consequences for the employee. While the employer may be found vicariously liable for employee’s acts the law (relevant laws) do include sanctions against employees. It’s the difference between command responsibility and responsibility for actual breaches of that command. I do not find it strange that western countries weren’t willing to do more for Croatia particularly having in mind that propaganda which ensued seemed to push into the background the real reason for Croatia’s secession from Yugoslavia, which was to exercise self-determination but sadly many Westerners pushed the idea that it was a civil war for their own political gains…
Ina he also said how Tito has saved his ass from prison,and that UDBA was formed to deal with nationalists of all people,also he said he gave you Croatia in 1974 etc,He pretty much said all the best of Tito and yet you love one but hate other… deleted
Amir Pilipovic – The 1974 Croatia you mention was certainly not free and independent! I do not hate Tito, even if I did I would have my reasons and right to that, I do not agree with totalitarian regimes such as communism and as far as Tito is concerned I have just as much right not to agree with him just as you do not to agree with Tudjman. However, I have long ago identified my motives and they are: victims of all crimes including communist must receive justice.
It was free but not independent,i know countless number of people who did great in it,including Tudman.Croats make it sound as Tito was on your porch so he can fallow you to make sure you are not doing anything wrong,also you believe he hated only you and was killing only you,The truth is He wasn’t micro-manager and didn’t discriminate in his beating of nationalists,Today we have many who admire him for good or ok reasons and we have those like you who hate him without reason and then we have ustashas and chetniks that hate him for legit reason.
And yet Amir Pilipovic you have the gall in suggesting that Tudjman was “micro-manager” – to be blamed for everything everyone did! Oh, people have good reasons for hating Tito and they’re neither ustashas nor chetniks! Tito did discriminate against certain nationalities, he did discriminate against those who didn’t follow communist ideals just as all leaders in totalitarian systems do…. and just to bring the point of 1970’s Croatia you refer to – many people did not sit “on porches” if they wanted to sing Croatian songs – it had to be “sotto voce” behind closed doors and windows otherwise you’d end up with bruises and jail fodder…that’s only one example which actually says a lot… there are signs of similar things going on in Croatia these days and it’s such things that demonstrate how far democracy has gone. You try and criticise an American for his/her pride in being American or British…or German…or French … see how far you will go in accusing them of nationalism… patriotism means pride in belonging and belonging is the backbone of identity, it does not mean hating others by the way but when someone denies you what’s your right them all sorts of things can happen
RESPECTED BEAUTIFUL INA AND FRIEND
Three times I was arrested in the former Yugoslavia for singing Croatian songs : ” Marjane , Marjane ” ” Oh you fairy Velebit “, ” bright star above the Metkovic ” … and every time I got 30-40 days imprisonment with hard labor in feeding pigs – sows and picking strawberries. While others are normally studied and took tests , I am fed sows ? ! It is quite certain that the eventual extradition Perkovic German judiciary , and his testimony could reveal the most powerful Udba circle still light and shadow political and economic scene in Croatian . A conducting further investigations into the murder of Stephen Djurekovic inevitably would lead to the threshold Slavica Radic, behind which stands today as the most powerful lobby Udba and capital that got a divorce from the powerful owner of Formula 1 Bernie Ecclestonea.U this context Milanovic’s stubbornness in case Perkovic is quite logical because protecting him prime minister actually protects Slavica Ecclestone . And protecting her on , first of all, protects the entire top of the Party of those lead communist times to the present Kukuriku authorities . These days the lines close to the ruling coalition leaked the news that Prime Minister Zoran Milanovic and obstinate to the last breath defying Brussels Perkovic case because it actually wants to protect the richest Croatian citizen and former wife of the owner of Formula 1 Bernie Ecclestone who supposedly knows everything about the murder of Stephen Djurekovic . So in fact claims her ex-boyfriend Momir Blagojevic, who has since changed his name to Vigor Komar . Remember, Momir Blagojevic is a shocking story of Slavica Radic and her collaboration with UDBA presented at the end of 1997th year in the former tabloid Imperijal after which the then leadership headed by President Tudjman . At that time, Slavica Ecclestone reportedly urged her husband Bernie to bring Formula 1 to Croatia and to the Grobnik , which is particularly impressed feminine part of the family of the first Croatian president Ankica wife and daughter Nevenka Tudjman , because the Miranda’s son Sinisa Košutić at that time had big ambitions to drive in Formula test run first In this interview Momir Blagojevic, as a former senior employee of the Public Prosecutor’s Office in Rijeka , explicitly argued that Slavica Radic was associate Rijeka Udba .
She was recruited by his claims inspector Rijeka Udba Marin Modric, one of those German police suspected to have been involved in the murder of Stephen Djurekovic :Said among other things Momir Blagojevic in an interview titled ” The richest Croat Slavica Radic prostituted by order Udba with Croatian politicians ‘ , published in ‘ Imperial ‘ , 14 studenoga 1997th year . After this interview started the whole avalanche of criticism and attacks from the state leadership at the expense of the aforementioned tabloid , one of the most active in the defense of the life and work of Slavica Radic was then Prime Minister Zlatko matesic . With UDBA of cooperating in 1982. year, and to cooperate ‘m her , unfortunately , has convinced me. Specifically , we are constantly coming together , but we were already on the top of my head what my company crosses the ball to other men . I just wanted to again go abroad , because , far from my sight, out of mind. Every time the passport to come across the bed , where she was the chief passport department. But since that year as head of the passport department came to women , a certain Mrs. Mary, Slavica was clear that your prescription can not be applied to it. Then I sent it to cooperate with UDBA
– But he is so close with then-wife owners of Formula 1 Slavica Ecclestone that many of the then ruling political circles believed that between them there is something more than just friendship.
But Mateša involvement in covering up the truth about the former first lady owner of Formula 1 and it is not surprising if one considers that his first job after completing law school in Zagreb was just in INA, namely the ‘ Ini store , where his bosses were just Stephen Đureković and Vanja Špiljak .
Zlatko Matesa , according to the God of our colleagues at the time of the murder Vukusic Stephen Djurekovic was branch secretary of the Communist Party (SK ) in the ‘ Ini trade ‘ and is in office conducted an investigation into the party Đurekovićevu case . A Momir Blagojevic alias Komar in the said Imperial shocking interview about a possible connection to the case Slavica Radic Stephen Djurekovic said the following: I visited Bruno Smokvina , Chief Udba in Rijeka. Then we expressly stated that it works for them and that they fit her extremely low mental level … And I even asked if I read in the newspaper that he was killed Đureković . Later, some of Rijeka musicians , who played in a bar in Munich , said that her one month before the murder seen in the bar in the company of Djurekovic . I guess it ‘s enticing . – Said Momir Blagojevic . Keeping all this in mind , it is quite certain that the eventual extradition Perkovic German judiciary , and his testimony could expose the most powerful Udba circle still light and shadow not only in political but economic life of the Croatian . A conducting further investigations into the murder of Stephen Djurekovic inevitably would lead to the threshold Slavica Radic, behind which stands today as the most powerful lobby Udba and capital that got a divorce from the powerful owner of Formula 1 Bernie Ecclestone . In this context, Milanovic’s stubbornness in case Perkovic is quite logical because protecting him Prime Minister actually protects Slavica Ecclestone . And protecting her, he , above all , protect the entire top of the Party of those lead times to the present communist SDP-led government.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thj-eEuKwOg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yvkbj3fZQk
Thank you koca1111s on your comment – to back up your information regarding Slavica Ecclestone here’s a link to the news article on that http://www.dnevno.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/94312-milanovic-ne-izrucuje-perkovica-zbog-slavice-ecclestone.html
The plot thickens around Perkovic! Know what you mean about being sent to jail for singing Croatian songs in Zagreb during the times of Yugoslavia… there were many who suffered so
No ,I said Tito wasn’t micro-manager and that Tudman did good in communism or in Tito’s time.I believe that Marshal uniform,Poglavnik came straight out of Tito’s playbook,Germany has a list … deleted due to sweeping allegations without provision of names and details…
No Amir – when it comes to Tito you say he wasn’t a micro manager, but when you talk of Tudjman you pin upon him the guilt of other men and it’s quite clear how that pans out… Marshal uniforms came into existence way before Tito and certainly as head of state and army Tudjman had every right to wearing one as to the title Poglavnik I truly doubt Tito used the word which has roots in old Croatian language, now you’re going to say Tito was a Croatian – and I’ll save you the effort with the answer in advance: the jury is still out on that one.
No Tito used word Marshal.Pavelic Poglavnik and Tudman named him self VRHOVNIK,All of them have same meaning.Vrhovnik was abolished by Mesic becouse even he thought it was little too much.I am just trying to point out to you how Tudman was getting ideas straight out of Communism play book.
Do bracop and amir ever get sick of trolling?
Under Croatia’s leadership Tudman a) Fought the JNA to a standstill when it, in terms of arms and manpower should have been crushed, holding all key defense points (Osijek, Vinkovci, Sisak, Karlovac, Gospic, Zadar, Dubrovnik) ensuring a territorial continuity that would allow for military and civilian supply lines to be able to continue to arm and feed besieged areas b) Achieved international recognition and international legitimacy c) Had a freedom of press FREER than any subsequent year / government in Croatia, with greater Serbian media operating in Croatia without any sanctions (Seral Fribune, Zarez, and similar vomitus) because freedom of the press is the basis of a free society d) Saved Bosnian Croats and Bosniaks from physical extermination by the Serbs (only to be stabbed in the back by the wheeling and dealing Islamist two-timer Alija Izetbegovic and his cabal of Muslim UDBa and KOS officers and operatives he surrounded himself with) e) Built a military-intelligence apparatus unseen in this area of the world and mopped the floor with the JNA/VJ’s western extensions, the VRSK and VRS, faces f) Left Croatia with 9 bn USD debt when the war damage was over 27 million USD and war costs (arming, salaries etc.) at around 80 bn EUR.
Tudman and the “unqualified” people he surrounded himself with (I am assuming you are referring to the self-made multi-millionaire Susak) achieved every single tactical and strategic objective Croatia needed, which means that they were overqualified and super-competant.
In terms of Mesic, Manolic & Co.: they were useful idiots.
Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer. That is what Tudman did. He hugged his enemies, neutralizing their threat (as UDBa operative Radoncic’s testimony in 1994 confirmed, Tudman did exactly what Beograd wanted him NOT to do and successfully neutralized the 40,000 UDBa snitches and 8,000 operatives), and he kicked them out to the street when the time was ripe, after the intelligence apparatus was built up enough and adequate enough to get rid of the filth that was needed to establish it.
Under Tudman a liberal social-democratic constitution was passed, the press could write whatever it wanted, and national debt was less, and Croatia’s military and intelligence apparatus was at its apex, with a special relationship with the US.
Which is why the bearded alcoholic resembling orangatang, KOSovac Mesic did everything to reverse Tudman’s military, diplomatic, tactical and strategic victories, starting with his jihad against the US by crapping on US foreign policy, against Croatian national security by opening the national archives (and stuffing in a few falsified documents), and turning to the non-Aligned movement he was supposed to be the new Tito for in his plot with JNA Gen. Blagoje Adzic that Tudman new about in where Mesic, Manolic and Boljkovac would run a rump Croatia with the SKH-SDP if the JNA coup of Croatia’s first democratically elected president and government succeeded.
The pathological, anal fixation with Tudman by certain degenerate circles (Chetnofascists, Islamofascists, greater Bosnjakistanists, Yugonostalgic Titoists and similar sewer scum) is evident with the Pavlovian reaction to any mention of Tudman – throw a hysterical fit, drool uncontrollably and spew discredited nonsense to try and denigrate the big geopolitical winner of the 1990s, which is idiotic considering he achieved every single strategic objective he lined out before the war.
Croatia has full control of its territory and is in NATO and the EU, just like Tudman envisioned in the early 1980s.
Eat your hearts out haterz.
Amir I see Alija’s buddy Krajisnik, whom Alija divided Bosnia with along with Milosevic and Karadzic behind Boban and Tudman’s backs, landed and was greeted as a hero in ethnically purified of non-Serb RS, which is 49% of BiH territory.
Thank your Alija and his KOS/UDBa/Mujahadeen cabal he surrounded himself with for that. If they didn’t betray the Croats, RS would either not be in existence or be limited to parts of Eastern Bosnia.
But Alija and friends chose their path, and less than intelligent Bosniaks still defend that suicidal path, like bracop and Amir.
Well guys, enjoy. Krajisnik will be strutting around Banja Luka freely until his last days. Thank Alija & Co. for that.
Ah, therealamericro, it’s seems braco pd and Amir are on a mission designed by the likes of Mesic! But, hey, the ammunition of truth is on Tudjman’s side, it’ll just take longer to sink in with some – onward and forward I say.
Therealamericro or Ina,Keep your friends close and enemies even closer is what Tudman operated by,and he named Manolic a head of SIS(this is not just stupid ,it’s actually beyond stupid)Tudman then names all his enemies ,gives them top position and for some unknown reason you find it to be brilliant .Tudman didn’t kick UDBA to the curb as you believe,He retired them and even today Croatia has around 20000 of them on it’s payroll.Perkovic was his adviser(I guess he didn’t have anybody smarter and more skilled)… DELETED as inappropriate
braco pd – I guess that’s one of the reasons why Tudjman was a great leader and you don’t like it
It’s easy to be a general after the battle now and get smart
Dr. Franjo Tudjman, was forced to accept all Croats who were armed and ready mentally decided upon big – Serbian aggression . But to even be able to talk about this topic should go back into history and chronological answer questions . Today all condemned DR.FRANJE Tudjman which took Perkovic and other members of the secret police. What would happen then that 5,000 members of the UDB is standing on the Serbian side , at a time when Croatia was not even close to the National Guard , Armed Forces, HOS , reserve police . Braco your comment is stupid and arbitrary and does not intend mutt explain that it is impossible to correct the wrong Drina. How and why it came about materialism , a worm that dissolves and Croatian being, especially since 1918th the year, with the state and the party as a means … willing or unwilling suggest lies, theft and murder … under the direction of the dark . Croatian naive idealist so and so , the rest of the invaders materialists persecuted and decimated , and the community was left without a leader of his people, has survived only by the grace and knowledge. Who is lying, the stealing and killing , inherent vampires, heartless things on . . . Which do bluffing . And as Croats realized that the man has no reason to fear impersonal figure , which actually have no power but to deceive and getting used to their needs. So they are. . . occupiers patterns of materialism and instructions of the Serbian Orthodox Church as a mentor , disrupted Croatian community , the 1918th to the 1941st year , and the 1945th up in 1971. years later than in 1971. to the 1991st years , are constantly on the Croatian territory waged aggressive wars – ” scorched land ” , and over the remains of their minorities modified styles disrupted Croatian homes , as hardened slaves of materialism . Similarly similar aims . . . or habit adjust. . . And self-critical , always earned adequately invested . Croats come in uninvited guests wanderers , vagabonds … so deliberately encourage trade , drugs and gambling , not work and production. Stores what Croatian safe water in despair , because they are based on lies, theft and murder , which control soulless materialists for the most heinous evil rewarded , as Lenin , Tito and others . . and honored by the ” masses” as more killing followed the senior ranks . Criteria materialism pre eliminate sin committed . . . A devotee of materialism . . . fascism and anti-fascism are blur . . . to hide materialism and its holders , who are rewarded for lying, thieving for more , and most of the murder . . . , But the same deceived the soul are barking and barking will torment the dark side of the moon. Here’s how matter does not help , on the contrary collapsing foundations , which are read out in the palm of each individual as a sacrifice on the side of life. Just be self-critical , and the response follows a man making : himself and puts himself on trial , always himself. . . , Without self-criticism Man subsists of lies. . . to hell . What is needed , and the Serbian minority in Croatia and the Serbian Orthodox Church and that directs them to the rules of materialism. Among other minorities living in harmony with the Croats in Croatia, the Serbian minority habitually used for wanted to be above the Croatian people , and because of this behavior , did not deserve to be mentioned . And today only in solidarity with former Serbian Trabant Croats operatives Greater UDB , atheists and agnostics , as tendentious poisoner . See ” miracles ” when it comes to material wealth Croatian , again materialists – antifascists . . . trading the last 20 years , most were seized . Handsome in this segment are routinary fascism and demonstrate that neither then nor now welcome in Croatia because collectively as such undermines the foundations , and undermines unity Croats. . . , Agreed occupiers – fascists . What irony , along with uninvited guests , organized fascist have benefited immensely , while their Croats serve as subject for ridicule . Therefore, the Croats , which undermines the unity of the history , blame themselves . They realized that they need to restore order, work and discipline for life on an endless road. Recap on behalf of the future : Croatian janissaries are there, yet lustrated no converts , because for them as if they committed a sin still exists, because in the future biography and works should be the criteria – for Croats. Materialists do not assume bare existence , and is easily converted to traders, gamblers, which contradicts the rules of life as slaves to serve the illusion . . . and wars for profit if 1991 years was the liberation war in Croatia , as the war was fought on Croatian territory , 1918th , 1941st , 1971st , year and why … For example, the Croatian Borićevcu , Zrin and other places, the vampire Ball participated Djoko are Jovanić and Jovanka Budisavljević , they planted janissaries Josip Broz , illiterate vagabonds , Lenin’s apprentice operative , representative of materialism . Anti-fascism in Croatia magnified when intruders create discord in Croatia , just because today we can benefit . Materialists , atheists , agnostics , and others . . . parties as a means to serve the good trade and dividing Croats home and homeland , by imputing to them the names of fascism – fascism , as well as traps, torch bearers of soulless materialism. . . In support of union Croat diaspora are not together with the Croats in Croatia. Who and why they are separated over fascism – fascism that still depopulated . And where is the Croatian emigration that is dreaming about returning a century … So Lenin – Tito and their followers are dark, violent causes victims emperors death , warning in agony. . . howling and barking at the moon , finally ending .
Cities of liars and thieves especially without factories, sanctuaries . . . the same does not want to lustration , and responds to them, trade and darkness. . . ,
http://koca111-lucija.blogspot.com/2011/11/general-ivo-jelic-osnivac-i-prvi-ratni.html
Ina ,I do find it a little bit strange that fair,honest person allows language like the one of therealamericro while you don’t allow facts from me.why don’t you come out because you are not fooling me so far.
braco pd – apart from sweeping hysterical statements of hate from you I have yet to see some evidence. I have come out, it’s you who is hiding behind a pseudonym … it’s you who is trolling, so in that case anything you say and I can’t find a corroborating link to source the facts is deleted… oh no, don’t let yourself be fooled, that’s not my intention – why would I want to use the truth to fool people … people who use a pseudonym do not bother me (that is a personal choice and right) as long as their comments are palatable and not personally offensive and they provide enough detail in comments that any reader can verify by searching the issue – your offensive comments that have been deleted here are vitriolic hatred and if you’ve by any chance forgotten what you wrote I have stored them as proof of my absolute correctness in deleting them from public view and that’s all I need as a fair person for anyone to see at a later date but of course these cannot be published due to obvious reasons
Sometimes, I think that at this point Mesic, Josipovic and their ilk should be tried for treason. Croatia should not be struggling so much to move away from communism and communist ideals in politics, the economy and society. But it still is. Because our dear pollies refuse to let go of this anti-human, cowardly ideology that is communism; they refuse to be brave and honourable, to leave behind an ideology that only favours them and their interests. Greed and power corrupt the soul.
Hear, hear – Kat!
Well I provided plenty of evidence ,the problem is that my evidence backs up my point not yours … deleted as offensive
braco pd – your point of view is not evidence and since you have such a strong point of view why don’t you start a blog of your own? Or is it that you’re not prepared to reveal who you really are in case of unpleasant consequences to what you have to say without backing it up with independent sources?
Whoever believes that Tudman was smart naming Manolic a head of SIS or Mecic and rest should go to youtube and watch there witness testimony,HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT,WELL BECAUSE I WAS IN CHARGE OF SIS,.MR MESIC HOW DO YOU KNOW TUDMAN AND MILOSEVIC MADE A DEAL TO SPLIT BIH…….WELL I WAS TUDMAN’S MINISTER AND HE PERSONALLY TOLD ME SO.if you really believe it was smart of Tudman then you must be living in lala-land.
Amir, Tudjman never said anything of the sort about what transpired at March 1991 etc meeting with Milosevic at Karadjordjevo – Mesic has taken it upon himself to spread his imagination, lies and hearsay so it would be good if you could give us the youtube link where he says that Tudjman told him that there was talk of dividing Bosnia and Herzegovina. So either Mesic lied to ICTY court or he is lying to the youtube media that you mention but here is where Mesic testified in ICTY that Tudjman did not actually tell him anything of the sort/ Mesic decided he’d take a punt and make up stories that would suit his own rise to the top.
Page 7138 ICTY Transcript Blaskic case ( Sept 1998 Stjepan Mesic testimony re Karadjordjevo meeting Tudjman & Milosevic which was not attended by Mesic nor anyone else:
http://www.icty.org/x/cases/blaskic/trans/en/980317IT.htm
“So, after President Tudjman returned from the meeting at Karadordevo with President Milosevic, he informed you that Bosnia would be partitioned — partitioned between Croatia and partitioned between Serbia; is that correct?
A (Mesic). Roughly, from what he said, one could deduce that Bosnia could not survive, that we would be given the borders of the former Banovina plus Kladusa and Bihac — Cazin and Bihac. That was the conclusion that could be drawn from what he said. Of course, nothing was said to the effect that there was a written document about it, or a written contract. That was not mentioned…”
Anything Mesic says about this is purely his evil guesswork tailored to blacken Tudjman and Croatia and unfortunately the world media etc decided to take his word just because he was Mesic. Well, the world took the word of a liar – Tudjman never told him anything specific or definite about the content of discussions at the meeting and perhaps you should inform yourself better, plenty has been written on this issue and the here’s a bit more about truthfulness of Mesic.
Visiting Switzerland, Buchs, in March 1992, Stjepan Mesic was asked: Are the claims about an agreement between Tudjman and Milosevic regarding the territorial division of Bosnia and Herzegovina at all true? Mesic replied: “They are not. There are no agreements between Tudjman and Milosevic. We have talked with Milosevic because we had to find out what the thief wants.” This is the translation into English from the March 1992 Buchs video that follows here below: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9pn-RsrqZ8
Really, one simply cannot believe that pathetic excuse of a politician.
Well Mesic was a witness at Milosevic’s trial as the President of Croatia and Josip Manolic was a witness at the trial of the 6.Mesic has given interviews as the president,i mean countless interviews to the fact of what i said.I don’t see ICTY seeing a president of a country as a lier nor as somebody on a mission of destroying his own country and people,and it may be the biggest problem for Tudman and Croatia.Talking to people i have came to realize that many don’t even know the difference between SIS and HIS,SIS is really UDBA ,has had same purpose or to spy on own people,Tudman has named Manolic to be the Head of it and Ivo Lucic for SIS BIH,Now you can tell to whom ever you want how it was smart,or how Manolic knew nothing,You may be even right but the problem is that ICTY doesn’t work that way.We or You never mention Martin Spegelj ,Ante Markovic,After the war Markovic visited Izetbegovic in Sarajevo and told him that both Tudman and Milosevic have done him wrong and gave him couple recorded tapes of both Tudman and Milosevic.The tapes have been recorded by SIS or Josip Manolic and are being used as proof vs Tudman.It sounds to me it’s Tudman vs the World,are all of them lying or Tudman is the question today.
Amir, stop shooting arrows into emptiness… the point which you simply do not get is that Tudjman did not say to Mesic what exactly transpired at the meeting with Milosevic and that’s quite clear from the ICTY transcript. Oh no ICTY didn’t think Mesic was lying, it’s not its job to test the veracvity of Mesic was saying unless a perjury charge is brought forth. Yes Mesic has made sure lies about Tudjman spread around and Mesic was well positioned politically for that. – actually Markovic wasn’t at the Karadjordjevo meeting either – so please stop making it as if he was … by the way can we access the content on those tapes Markovic gave to Izetbegovic … Yes it does boil down to Tudjman vs the world – that’s what happens when someone gets so much mud thrown against him that it’s hard to shake off… But then Tudjman doesn’t need to be against the world because there are enough of those who know the truth.
Responsibly claim that young CROATIAN GOVERNMENT never get war without secret agents
Again I have to respond, although it will not have to. I was personally against the members of the secret police recruited into the Armed Forces. But after 2-3 months I decided it was strategically important project, dr. Franjo Tuđman, because these secret agents had so much information about The generals JNA, which was present in Croatia as a standing army, and we then created by members of the Croatian Army were paramilitaries. Each of these commanders JNA had an Achilles’ heel, that would have left the JNA and join the Army or fled the JNA were looking for money and civilian uniform, some wanted to pay them an expensive brothel, a third are looking for Croatian citizenship certificate and passport to leave the territory of Yugoslavia … without secret agents like Manolić, Perkovic … Croats would still at war, and Croatia was Beirut. Only JNA officers and noncommissioned officers who wanted to join the Army we had volunteers armed guard, to themselves and their families. Perkovic was first brought about division Serbian volunteers (80, 000) on Baniji, Kordun and Lika, armed with automatic weapons, with the support of artillery, tanks, planes, warships … National Guard and the creation of the Croatian government and the Croatian Army 5. I have said that on the first call of President Tudjman , to leave the JNA and pass on the Croatian side , hardly anyone responded .
Those members of the JNA superbly trained Croats , no, did not answer .
Responded civilians generation , 40 – 5o . years, and ( 1990 ), who still dreamed of a conditionally Independent State of Croatia , not in terms of the Ustasha NDH , but sovereign Croatian state , which will govern its capital and its resources primarily due to the use of its resources for the development of Croatian Croatian former SFRY republics of Yugoslavia ! So remember Ms. President of the Croatian Communist ( SKH ) , Ms. Savka Dapčević – Kučar . Croatian currency and financing of the former Yugoslavia were based on foreign currencies that Croatia has had shipbuilding and tourism ! So remember the car “put” no road from Belgrade to Skopje in Macedonia soon , from Novi Sad to the Hungarian border , financed the most money from the Croatian . Railroad Belgrade- Bar ! ? . I’m talking about the production of weapons , mines , missiles, and other munitions now called RBKO , general military industry , it was all in the hands and on the territory of the former Republic of Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina under the control of Serbia, which since 1980 (after TITA ) continuously increasing cost of military equipment at the expense of other republics was collecting capital and creativity Serbian army JNA . The Homeland War was a defense- liberation war for independence and integrity of the Croatian state against aggression associated Greater power – extremists in Croatia , the JNA and Serbia and Montenegro. War, preceded by a rebellion of the Serbian population in Croatia , which broke out in August in 1990. The first armed clashes started breaking in , 1991. In the beginning , 1991. there was an armed conflict in Župa dubrovačka , who took the first victims in Croatia. The events of ” Bloody Easter ” in Banići and Slano reassure the residents and last Zavale who still believed in a peaceful solution to the political conflict. That their lives and property at risk , first felt the inhabitants of Salt who lived in close contact with the rebels in the Serbian villages. So you had to react quickly , so they organized the HDZ, local authorities, and in some places independently organized volunteer groups that are standing guard at night . They generally were unarmed or with personal weapons . At that meeting, a decision was made on the establishment of an unarmed volunteer detachment where , among other things , concluded that it must be a person over 18 years old , because the pressure young people , volunteers , for admission to this detachment was great, and they always any more than guns. Crisis Staff of the municipality Salt and Ston basis of the decision on the establishment of volunteer detachments of volunteers organized the book in the Secretariat of the HDZ in building catering facility Korona in Mali Ston , having Bozo Sare soon make up their lists and to 7 May reported about 500 volunteers. Organized by the Executive Council of Ston members of civilian protection activities continue around the protection of the population , material and other goods out of a possible war , but because of obvious aggression against Serbian paramilitaries and the JNA . With already created reserves of food and fuel which are placed in a safe in the surrounding villages and individual companies , and assessing the potential danger as the destruction of water wells . Because of the importance and potential consequences , particular attention is paid to the protection of the population through the creation of public shelter, protection and rescue of fire , rehabilitation , medical and veterinary assistance. It is estimated to be greater combat could run in the vicinity of Salt and Ston , and that in this case there was a great destruction and dismantling of economic, utility and other important buildings . It is very likely that such an action has caused , but material damage, the increasing number of deaths and injuries , possible outbreak of epidemics , difficult work of health care , utilities and other institutions. Anticipating these problems, especially the possible difficulties in the organization of health care for the population and the armed forces , which will be run in terms of a number of injuries , lack of doctors – surgeons and medical supplies , were performed , and other preparations. For the purposes of the Health Ston of civil protection units composed sanitation team of women who have undergone a course of providing first aid , and placed on the schedule to the Health Centre . In May and June 1991st piled the unrest in the area between Zavala, Čepikuće , Visoćani , Banic , Salt , Brsećine , Doli … JNA in the beginning , ” making” between the warring parties , although it was a police task , and the task of the army was to defend against external enemies. By placing between police and outlaw RH JNA actually gave security Serbian outlaws . Around Salt were deployed Serbian tanks and artillery , and soon they began attacks on members of the Croatian police , but also on innocent non-Serb population . JNA acts indifferent and inactive , so do not even show the slightest desire to remove from their ranks those who flirt with the Chetniks and other holders of the Greater ideas. However , because they are very determined to prevent the Croatian legal organs to ensure law and order on its entire territory , in which case the security situation further intensified . How in these areas was not performed disarmament of illegal paramilitary groups and composition , but there was still massive arming Serbian population increase by paramilitary armed groups which , while protecting the JNA troops freely demonstrate force and attacks on members of the Croatian police are still continuing unabated . In such a situation of war presidency of Ston with the commander of the National Guard and Croatian agreed forming units IPN in Ston , severity company that had 123 people . The idea of forming a battalion is supported , but could not be immediately realized , for several reasons. Most members of the platoon previously volunteered to fill the volunteer squads . Place reporting invited volunteers were police station in Ston. 12th night July at the time of 22-24 hours , everyone is invited to come to the former TO uniforms and armed with light machine gun 7.62 mm. In addition , they got 3 guns 7,9 mm M53 and two M57 rocket launchers intended for anti-tank missiles . About 6 hours , by a large fog, performed lineup water that leads Bozo Sare , commander Ston company . On that occasion, determined and platoon commander Teo Barkiđija , a dozen commanders were: Vice Škrabo , Ante Glunčić . Lineup company attends Ante Parađik dividing Luger pistols and Mauser . In those moments, it was particularly important to everyone who wanted to attack the people of Dubrovnik coast show that the police there are also forces that are ready to defend their people. Therefore, members of against saboteurs water daily patrols with personal weapons , and the city is showing in uniform , to create the illusion that there are a lot, and at night took part in the guards at critical points .
Ina, I’ve been on your blog for while and love the dialogue. But I use a pseudonym simply because I do not trust traitors and Serb Chetniks who troll for information to defame and cause trouble for their enemies to advance their cause. People do terrible things in the name of their cause. Also, Tito was not equal in his treatment of nationalists…the number of Croat victims of his regime far out weighs that of any other national group. And Serb nationalists had every reason to support Yugoslavia because it was in fact Greater Serbia.
Sunman, as I said I do not mind people using pseudonyms – it is everyone’s right to remain anonymous if they wish – but for reasons you mention I have included Terms of Use/Disclaimer/ Comment Policy so that legally (and respecting the commentators’ right to know in advance about conditions of commenting) I am covered to moderate or delete comments that are offensive, profane, try to lead the public away from the truth. At times I edit some words in comments but some comments arrive like “poison letters” and simply must be deleted. When I started this blog almost two years ago I was conscious of the facts that vitriolic and defamatory comments will come – that is a kind of a part and parcel of matters discussed, but that must be the cost to be paid if we want Croatian truth to survive and surface amidst so much anti anti anti Croatian propaganda. I so agree with you regarding the number of Croatian victims of communist regime – it is an abhorrent truth that must be dealt with one way or another and not swept under the carpet or mixed up with victims of different perpetrators as Josipovic is doing.
You are right by saying that communist regime was way harder on croats,has killed more croats etc,but the reason for it is that ‘Srbi su otisli u cetnike a vratili se iz partizana’.and they have kept pretty much quite all the way to 89,90(they did all the work from shadows)while on the other hand croats have been too loud,honest and open in expressing how they felt about Tito and his regime,and it’s why you had to pay bigger price.Even today you know who is Tudman,Pavelic and Tito leaning while the same serbs consider Milosevic,Mladic,Karadzic serbian heroes but had to throw them under the bus to cover up there ideology,The Cirilica in Vukovar comes straight out from Dobrica Cosic and SANU my friend.
Bracopd:
Mesic, Manolic and Boljkovac were KICKED TO THE CURB.
Indeed, the entire time HIS was forming, the jugoremanents were slowly purged – by 1993, when HIS formed, not a single UDBa or KOS operative was on its payroll, and remained such until Mesic was elected.
Perkovic didn’t take part in the Mesic-Manolic-Boljkovac-BND coup attempt against Tudman, so he was the sole UDBa survivor.
Like I said, keep your friends close, but your enemies closer. Perkovic didn’t give Tudman a reason to boot him by not joining the three stooges putsch attempt, so he continued to keep him close and in a totally useless position with no authority so as to neutralize the threat that he posed.
It was Mesic and that incompetant party line aparatchik Racan who rehabilitated UDBa and KOS in Croatia.
The problem is that their use of the state and government and institutions to protect that murderous degenerate Perkovic will be their own demise, and it is beautiful in that all the years they were screaming about “dictator” Tudman, and selling themselves as some “democratic” opposition, have been exposed as fraudulent to everyone, including the UK, as is apparent with Viviane Reding’s reaction.
The low-quality Yugoslav nationalist-socialist produced political raft has too many holes and is sinking quick.
Even the Yugoslav jihadists at 24sata and Jutarnji Prist have turned against the scum in government.
Time is on Croatia’s side ; – )
So, Amir and bracopd, you believe Stipe “I was against the Declaration on the Name and Status of the Croatian Literary Language before I was for it, and everyone I was in contact with in the Croatian Spring “happened” to be jailed” Mesic is a reliable source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egku0sLuqDE; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV-uijB52A8
Amir and bracopd – do you or do you not support a Croatia to the river Drina like Mesic publicly called for http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO-7R3zmWUs(along with Sarajevo’s darling, Blaz Kraljevic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ3u1GIVDdQ)?
What is your take on Marcus Tanner’s views:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMT8bhWjIlw
: – 0
Trouble in greater Bosniak / AVNOJ BiH Titoist Unitarist agitprop paradise with that one….
I think nothing of well unknown people,nor i have time for it,Why don’t you give us a link to well known people who met Tudman and people who had to deal with him,I am talking about Albright,Holbrook,Zimmerman,Galbraight … deleted
Amir I have given you info re http://www.tudjman.hr – there’s a page on that website dedicated to who said what about Tudjman – PLENTY OF GREAT PEOPLE THERE WHO SAY GOOD THINGS ABOUT TUDJMAN – So, let’s put it this way you stick to your group who had nothing good to say and I’ll stick to the group of people who had plenty of good to say about Tudjman!
TP Melady on Tudman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp54XB5yjks
F Cossiga: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fp9_oa9Ey4
Israeli Amb. to Croatia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE21X1ThFec
Ljubco Giorgievski: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmApax9vHSE
Joseph Ehrenkranz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcEqfZ1o_sw
Thanking you therealamericro
Amir: Marcus Tanner was a reporter for both the Guardian and Independent of London and wrote a seminal book, “Croatia: A Nation Forged in War,” and is a frequent expert commentator on Croatia and the wider region for the BBC, British, and international media.
He is actually quite well known and considered a wealth of knowledge on the region.
One must note that “credible” ICTY witnesses Ante Markovic, Josip Manolic and Stipe Mesic all were named as co-conspirators with KOS by war criminal / JNA General Blagoje Adzic, for KOS / the JNA to overthrow the democratically elected government in Croatia, which is written in Adzic’s personal memoirs on the breakup of Mesic’s beloved Yugoslavia.
One must note that Mesic,Manolic have nothing to do with Adzic,they have not been witnesses to him nor at his trial,you would be better off if you focus and stay focused on the trial of the 6 or Milosevic,
Mesic, Manolic, Boljkovac and Spegelj have everything to do with JNA war criminal General Blagoje Adzic (who, “mysteriously,” was never indicted nor tried by the ICTY) because they were part of Adzic and Col. Aco Vasiljevic’s OPERACIJA STIT, which was the JNA’s planned coup against Tudman.
Aco complained to Milosevic at his trial that he prepared everything for Milosevic in Croatia to overthrow Tudman; armed the Serbs, planted sleepers in Croatia’s military, had leading newspapers and TV journalists as well as university professors ready to support it in the international press, had the banks, factories and companies ready for liquidation and sale to Serbian ones and or merger with Serbian ones, everything was prepared, and Slobo, “ti si sve zasrao.”
Adzic NAMED Mesic, Manolic, Boljkovac and Spegelj by NAME in his book as co-conspirators to overthrow Tudman in 1991.
I have written a book on how Tudman ,you and Milosevic tried to divide BIH and yet you don’t believe me.
Who is “you” Amir? What’s the book title and author’s name please. It sounds like the same crap Mesic has been peddling for years
Ah, we even have the word police.
The problem with your insinuation of verbal crimes, in typical Yugonostalgic fanatic flare, is that Vrhovnik, an age old Croatian word, means Commander-in-Chief.
According to your “logic,” the United States is neo-Ustasa, as the president is referred to regularly as the Commander-in-Chief in Congress, by the military, by the media, and by citizenry alike.
Don’t you guys ever get sick of striking out continually and looking like bungling fools every time you regurgitate discredited wartime agitprop and logical fallacies?
No VRHOVNIK means POGLAVAR or a KING,or somebody who answers to nobody,Obama has laws in place and he can’t start the war while VRHOVNIK can etc,Well you know it .
Well Amir – whatever the word Tudjman was the best and the top – if he as president had powers it means they were given to that office by some law or constitution, furthermore he was the president while state of war of aggression against Croatia lasted and that in itself would give any Head of State in the world special powers … the last reintegration of Cro occupied territory was barely one year before he died in 1999. As far as President of US, as Commander in Chief of armed forces he has powers and delegations that vary so while Obama may have changed his mind about getting Congress authorisation for strike against Syria, I wonder if his powers as President do include a delegation or a pathway by which he as President can act in such matters without Congress? I don’t know the US law and constitution so much but it’s worth exploring for those interested.
Amir, go to rijecnik.net and type in Vrhovnik. You lose, yet again.
Don’t you ever get sick of it?
My friend VRHOVNIK is a title used by Tudman,meaning SUPREME COMMANDER,and we both know Obama is not Supreme Commander,and i really have no an idea how i lost again,I mean i am here mostly because of you ,to correct your dates,statments,even clips ,If you don’t know that M.Tudman was in charge of HIS,what do you know then.
Amir, therealmericro wrote in one of previous comments as reply to you that Miroslav Tudjman ran HIS – so what in blazes are you on about.
Further why are you comparing Croatia with USA (i.e. supreme commander and no supreme commander) ? You could for example compare Croatia with Sweden – Sweden has a Supreme Commander of its forces officially – and so do other countries, if Tudjman called himself that he’s not the only one in the world, so why are you making it as if it is.
Therealamericro.You are absolutely a hundred per cent right,none of them was in HIS nor was Manolic ever in charge of HIS,All of them have been in SIS and Manolic was appointed a head of SIS by Franjo Tudman,If you are familiar with UDBA and KOS it will be much easier for you to understand the difference,SIS is really renamed UDBA and HIS renamed KOS and one more big difference is the head of HIS or Miroslav Tudman.So it was Manolic’s job to spy on his own people including Tudman and all the politicians and Generals of HV and every single citizen of Croatia and i can tell you he did great job,Croatia has about 16,500 retired UDBA and 8000 KOS members on its payroll as of today,All have been retired by Franjo Tudman,If you consider that throwing to the curb ,you are right,I would advise you to watch little bit the best of ICTY and see how screwed they are.Can you just tel me why Tudman needed Perkovic to begin with.(i personally find it stupid).
Miroslav Tudman ran HIS ; – )
Yes sir,and now well known Perkovic was his close adviser too.Manolic ran SIS for about 15 months and now historian Ivo Lucic ran SISBIH.M.Tudman has sued Croatia in 2000/01 …. DELETED DUE TO LACK OF VERIFIABLE INFORMATION SOURCE
So you agree that thousands of UDBa and KOS operatives were forcibly retired thanks only to Tudman.
There is a start.
YES sir,only i don’t think they should be paid for killing,selling out on snitching on Croatian people,They should have been thrown on the street in real meaning of it,NO SOUP FOR YOU.
Amir and bracopd, what about the testimony of the second Sarajevo Token Croat, Stjepan Kljujic (who was blocked from fulfilling his duties as Vice President during the Airport Crisis by Haris Silajdzic): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0lC8XfhS4s, and Alija’s own written / stamped order to create TO units ONLY where Bosniaks were?
You bring another great point,Stjepan Kljujic ,first head of HDZBIH untill he was replaced by Tudman in 1992 becouse according to Kljujic he disagreed with Tudman over BIH,he wasn’t willing to split it,Also was a prosecution witness in Haage vs the 6 croats,Took all the bullets for Izetbegovic and blamed Tudman -Boban team for everything that happened in BIH,I honestly have no idea why you bring him up to make little point.I am not really sure you are getting this conversation.
Here is another great video debunking Manolic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0fMGtr15NQ
Kljujic admits Alija carried out a putsch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQbdfnZxt5g
Therealamericro,I have a very friendly question for you,CAN YOU UNDERSTAND,SPEAK AND WRITE CROATIAN LANGUAGE,i mean you just keep posting clips used by prosecution in Hague vs croats,your latest is Kljujic taking tank,m16,f16 ,ak47,rpg fire for Izetbegovic and yet you are posting it believing it’s something else.
Amir – I’ll just bud in here: in principle it does not really matter whether the prosecution or the defense submit something to court as evidence, the evidence is for both sides to consider and submit arguments for/against etc
I agree but if you watch the clip you will see that Kljujic is religiously defending Izetbegovic and i think it;s not the point Thereal is trying to make,He did it couple times before with clips of Halilovic,Izetbegovic and Delic.He may think we are not going to check it out … DELETED
Bosniaks dividing B&H with Serbs behind the Croats’ backs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTEptJeFkoo
Nice montage of text citations regarding as to who Spegelj, Mesic, Manolic and Boljkovac were working for the whole time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvpR7MxVm6Y
Ina Im talking about Ante Markovic ,and im not trying to say he was in Karadordevo,nor did he ever claim that,What im saying is the fact that even he was a witness in Hague.When halilovic was about to wright a book in 1997 he had Mesic and Martin Spegelj over in Sarajevo for five days,Anyways it’s really when they have started trashing Tudman.If you go to youtube and just enter the name of Mesic u hagu,or Josip Manolic you will get there testimony,otherwise ICTY has it’s own channel.
Amir – oh, Ante Markovic may have said similar things as Mesic but neither of them were actually present at the meeting – so, if the discussion is about the meeting we cannot continue it with the premise that what Mesic or Markovic said about it was actually what happened – I don’t need to go to youtube for this matter, I rely on ICTY material…
I am just trying to tell you how Tudman made mistake by appointing Mesic/Josipovic to the positions they ones held,and i am saying it to you because they both are in perfect position to lie,or to tell a perfect lie.OFF THE TOPIC Snowden could have told what ever he wanted ,he has pinned Obama and government down because if they called him a lier ,nobody would believe them.Mesic/Perkovic can lie because of there positions and it’s why KEEP YOUR FRIENDS CLOSE AND ENEMIES EVEN CLOSER doesn’t work all the time,Nor you guys fully understand a role SIS has played nor you get purpose of it.
That is your opinion Amir and I do not think you or I can judge Tudjman’s actions as mistakes, one can have an opinion about it but that doesn’t make it right. It’s up others to judge whether they agree with opinion or not
Respected beautiful friend Ina!
Dr. Franjo Tudjman must respect the Muslims, because the road of salvation: Jablanica- Sovićka vrata- Blidinje -Rakitno- Posušje, -Imotski- Split … allow the extraction of civilians and the wounded from Sarajevo, has enabled the Croatian government cares for refugees from Bosnia and Herzegovina. Also, no members of the former secret services, no officers of the former JNA … Croatia would never have won the war. In the whole of Croatia was then 5,000 poorly armed volunteers, and only members of the secret services were over five thousand with all this well-armed with automatic weapons. Besides members of SKH were also armed, especially former partisans from W2, now I ask you: Suppose DR.FRANJO not won a secret policeman and reconciled Croats (right and left), who today than you had in your life? Otherwise please spare me talk to this moron, greeting
Sincerely
“Without former Communists Croatia would not be free BUT that is only with the work of former Communists like Tudjman who saw and experienced first hand the wrongs of communism and turned the page in his life bravely – abandoning Communist ideals. There were many like that around him but there were also those that pretended.”
Ina – could you please provide direct quotes from Tudjman’s own lips where he details when and under what circumstances he experienced this epiphany of his – his conversion from a communist ideology to a democratic one………because I have gone to the sources you frequently mention and I am unable to pinpoint any speech of his where he conclusively, without reservation admits that he was in error when he put on his Partisan uniform in 1942 … DELETED AS INAPPROPRIATE… What is also even more disturbing – if that is at all possible – is that he spent the bulk of his professional working life in the thick of the Communist military/academic establishment where he thrived and made his mark as “Tito’s youngest general” and Tito’s confidante/protégée. One doesn’t achieve that kind of success under a totalitarian regime without it being earned. So, he was an ardent communist as a young man, he continued to thrive in communism as a middle aged man – even with his arrest during the Croatian Spring and Tito’s intervention to shorten his prison sentence – he never turned away from his Communist ideals. So lets call a spade a spade,Tudjman’s comrades in arms during WWII were exactly those whom Croatia was fighting both during WWII and in our Homeland War 1990-95 – Serbs/Chetniks and the Partisans(modern day JNA) our enemy during both wars was the same! So from that historical perspecitive, one could say that Tudjman switched sides and that is great – not a problem, he finally saw the light and he recognized he was wrong – I just can’t find the evidence to back up that assumption.In fact, according to Ina -“Croats do not necessarily hate Communists because there were many Croats who were members of the Communist Party during Yugoslav times.” You’re right, many Croats were members of the Communist Party, either through a genuine belief in the system or through economic necessity, but as of 1990 and the overwhelming referendum results in which Croatians voted out of Yugo. there should be no cowtowing to the apparatchiks that pushed us into that nightmare! There should have been a purge, a clean slate, a changing of the guard – unfortunately that didn’t happen. So I find it incredulous that anyone would expect a more democratic system there today, and more of a move against Communism???? WHY?? Did Tudjman set the example as first President of Croatia and apologize for any of his wrongdoings as a former Communist? Did he, as President, initiate a means by which former communists could be indicted and face justice for their crimes? So please, if someone can find some direct quotes from Tudjman on these subjects I would greatly appreciate it – my searches so far have been fruitless.
Velebit – I would suggest you read some works by Tudjman including his personal diaries. A wealth of information on http://www.tudjman.hr . December 22, 1990 – speech at proclamation of new Constitution of Croatia includes Tudjman’s words which say a great deal in so few words: “…That is, only eight months have passed from the first round of free elections, held after 45 years of Communist totalitarianism. All until that day the Croatian man was persecuted from his home, branded and condemned, only because he wanted to think, sing and live according to how he wanted. The way of human nature and laws and the way it has been and remained from time immemorial everywhere in this world. It has been less than seven months since the establishment of the new democratic government in Croatia, endangered from the first day to today by the dogmatic-Communist, Yugoslav-Unitarian, and Greater-Serbian-Hegemonic forces who are joining together in their irreconcilability towards any Croatian national and nation-creating idea; not only the one from Starcevic and Radic to Stepinac and Hebrang, but also the one from Strossmayer to Tito, and especially towards any synthesis of these”.
I have to say it is fascinating how contradictory the accusations against Tudman are by his detractors.
Greater Bosniak unitarists-Jihadis-and/or AVNOJ BiH Titoist Unitarists, greater Serbs and Yugoslav nationalist-socialists call Tudman an “Ustasa,” “nacionalista,” etc. (as did many of Serbia’s sychophants in W media and diplomatic establishment), while those on the (usually far) right wing accuse Tudman of being an unapologetic Communist, Titoist, even Yugoslav.
My question to all of his detractors is: which is it!? You all have to make up your mind.
Jacques Klein said it best about Tudman: “His place in history is secure.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvK1M3zgyYs
*Pored rijeke, zora svice, cekamo Vas, Predsjednice!*
Pocivao u Miru!
Reply to therealamericro: The question was simple and yet it apparently cannot be simply answered. Don’t try to pidgeon-hole my views or lump my questions about Tudjman’s veracity with whatever group of Tudjman-detractors you seem to despise. I am just asking for direct quotes from the man himself – just as countless times on this blog, others who have differing opinions are asked to do the same and when they are unable to do so their comments are deleted. As I have mentioned previously – the various recommended sources have also proven fruitless. Why is it so difficult for those who are actively safeguarding and promoting Tudjman’s “legacy” to Croatia and Croatians to come up with some links to his own speeches/writings/interviews that prove their point that he broke from and was apologetic for his role as a Partisan, his role as a Communist/Socialist?
Velebit, I’ll bud in here: can you direct me please here where it’s said that Tudjman was apologetic for his role as a Partisan, Communist etc????? To abandon something does not necessarily mean one must apologise for it; no one said I believe Tudjman was apologetic, that seems to be your construction here and your motives seem to be in confusing the issues. I am very clear on the fact that Tudjman ABANDONED COMMUNISM AND ITS WAYS. SO PLEASE DON’T REPLACE MY WORD “ABANDONED”WITH “APOLOGISED”.
Well i will give you an idea of how Tudman dealt with some people,Today they are 0,5 million members of the war on the payroll in Croatia and nobody knows why the number is so high,nobody believes it … DELETED DUE TO ACCUSATION AGAINST PERSON WITHOUT PROVIDING ANY PROOF OR SOURCE TO VALIDATE WHO ACTUALLY AWARDED AND WHEN THE WAR PENSIONS
Funny how you forget to mention the fact that the Veterans’ list was illegally made public (albeit with frenzied SDP operative support and participation as Rakar was and remains a SDP hack) – do you know how many fraudulent veterans have been called out to date?
Look into it, Amir.
It is no surprise that around 500,000 people are listed on the Veterans’ list, because 1/3 of the country was occupied and Croatia’s front line was THOUSANDS of KM long.
The entire debate is much ado about nothing because people included in the list includes EVERYONE who wore a uniform during the war.
That includes professional Croatian Army folks, local spontaneous units that civilians formed (which was a necessity in 1991), medics, transport / logistics personnel, conscripts, etc., i.e., EVERYONE who wore a uniform at one time or another.
The average mobilization rate for a nation of war is 10%. Croatia’s population in 1991 + all of the HRHB and Diaspora volunteers makes the service figure of around half a million very believable.
The one thing that needs to be done is separating those with front line service, those within enemy projectile range, and those who simply wore a uniform in the rear.
The problem arose after 2000, when the bearded regime, hell bent on decimating Croatia’s military and intelligence apparatus under the guise of “deTudmanization” (read: de-Croatization), hurriedly retired tens of thousands and threw everyone onto one single list as opposed to separating by type of military service, where served, etc.
Velebit: Croatia was neck deep in an unfair war waged by Serbia and not so tacitly supported by the international community’s big dogs.
You know, as well as I do, is that with the sacking of all former Commies the international community would have been screaming “Its the Independent State of Croatia all over again,” and then screaming about “discrimination,” “disenfranchizement,” “targeting political opponents” bla bla bla and then threats and or real sanctions.
We all know the international, especially UK / English speaking world media treatment of Tudman and propaganda framing techniques of anything Croatian in the 1990s.
Tudman didn’t have a magic wand to make all of Croatia’s problems – internal, geopolitical, diplomatic – go away.
There was no way Tudman could have won the media war, which was essential to the war effort and critical in securing tacit US support and the MPRI contract, with a total purge of scum that needed to be purged because the generally anti-Croatian, anti-Tudman journalists misreporting events in Croatia and B&H would have unleashed a jihad against Tudman because their goal was to downplay genocidal greater Serbian aggression.
Statesmanship is not about idealism, it is not dependent on wishful thinking and magic wands, it is about realism, pragmatism, and maximizing the state’s exploitation of political/military/economic situations and creating positive outcomes in step with your tactical and strategic vision with the cards you are dealt.
A clean slate: that was what should have happened in 2000, when Budisa should have won. But there was electoral engineering and then de-Tudmanization (de-Croatization) began under Mesic (who, incidentally, had the full support of “big” Croat and wanna-be Poglavnik Dobroslav Paraga), which has brought us to this sad state we are today and drives men like Zvonko Busic to suicide.
The Jugos didn’t vote in Mesic and Racan alone, naive, deaf, dumb, blind and unfathomably forgetful Croatians did as well. Just like they did (de-Tudmanized) HDZ.
If we had a 3rd option, with a viable plan, not empty patriotic rhetoric, then we may see the much needed changes.
The bottom line is that historical victor and pound for pound, No. 1 European statesman Post-WWII Europe, Dr. Franjo Tudman left Croatia everything, and Croatians themselves squandered it by voting for idiots, imbeciles, traitors and transvestites (Jozo Rados admitted publicly that (s)he feels like a woman and likes dresses, just pointing out who Croats’ have voted for).
Tudman for sure didn’t help himself nor Croatia by going to lion’s den,nor by having Boban meeting Karadzic secretly,Do you even know which country Karadordevo is in. DELETED AS PROFANE
Funny how you forget that Alija and his emissaries met with Milosevic, Karadzic, Koljevic & Co. BEFORE and AFTER Graz – after which, it must be noted, the HVO went on the offensive in the Neretva Valley, Central Bosnia, and Posavina against the JNA-VRS.
Remind me about the “deal” in Graz again, AFTER which the JNA-VRS was dealt a string of pornographic military defeats, the most epic being Lipanjske Zore?
The realamericro:”The Jugos didn’t vote in Mesic and Racan alone,naive,deaf,dumb,blind and unfathomably forgetful Croatians did as well. Just like they did (deTudjmanized HDZ)”
By disparaging the Croatian populace, you are not doing yourself any favors – writing such hate speech towards Croatia’s voting population is not good form for a supporter of democratic rights as I am assuming you are. I’m surprised your comments weren’t deleted as I find them to be very insulting to Croatians as a whole. That being said, you call Croatians ” forgetful”. Forgetful of what? What lessons were they supposed to have gleaned from the years of Tudjman’s leadership? Did they get the clear message that the Communists have no place in the new Croatia or did in fact these same Communists retain and maintain their place in the life of everyday Croatians? How did the average person perceive this great schism from Communism/Socialism to Democracy? How did he feel, experience and see the results of this” change” in his everyday normal activities? I would like to propose that he didn’t perceive much of a change – the old guard is still the old guard, the country has been mismanaged, sold off and robbed by any and all – but yet you expect Croatians to somehow to vote the ‘right’ people in? Who would those be? How are they to know the good from the bad and make informed opinions?
Velebit – I’ll bud in here because you mentioned that therealamericro’s comment should have been deleted because it contains insulting speech against Croatian voters who voted Mesic, Racan … in in 2000… I beg to differ, the comment is not offensive because after all in any democratic country when things go off etc people are told: you are to blame, you voted the bastards in etc. And if we go back to 2000 around presidential election times and you read Cro newspapers say Jutarnji List January you’ll come across articles that have me in them, Mesic in them – so I as a voter can say “you voted the bastards in, I as a voter tried to tell you a bit about Mesic that could help you decide on your vote” etc (the matter was about money from diaspora and Mesic’s sticky fingers over it; to try and throw sand into voters eyes at those election campaigning times Mesic then got Rade Buljubasic from Australia who recently became notorious in Croatia via shonky and corrupt dealings of HDZ with his job/HEP etc to say that I was a person who likes to sensationalise etc… [just off the rail here but still linked- if anyone goes into the effort of researching who was behind several useless and incompetent and politically shifty-for-personal-gain individuals that returned from diaspora to take positions in Croatia I bet my last dollar Mesic was behind many). What I am also trying to say here that when it comes to voters and voting we need to expect that therealamericro is one of them too and has an absolute right to point out issues related to the role of voters in democracy and the development of it. I did not find anything offensive to individuals or nation in the realamericro comment you refer to, I did not find any profanity in it to justify its deletion or moderation
Velebit:
Deaf, dumb and blind is a reference to a (friggin’ great) Thompson song.
Surprised you missed that. I don’t think I have to explain as to exactly WHO he was referring to.
It is my democratic right to say such – its not hate speech, its my opinion.
Everyone I speak to says the same thing here. Granted, a lot of Diaspora folks are my friends but also a lot of locals here are as well in ZG.
Well, everyone but the party line hacks and the occasional Pavelic and or genocidal Austro-Hungarian locksmith sychophant.
I think that you missed many of my points in the post you are responding to, especially the media-diplomatic constraints that Tudman had to make a “clean break” with the scum.
That said, he purged all but one rat from the intelligence apparatus, and all but a handful of unfortunately useful pencil pushers in the military, and left Croatia with a debt of 9 bn (despite the war costing 27.1 bn USD in damage and 80 bn EUR in arming / salaries), with a growing FDI, secure borders, the strongest native military and intelligence apparatus ever seen in this region, and defacto HRHB in the neocolonial protectorate.
Basically, in terms of everything that actually matters in statecraft and geopolitics, Tudman was the big winner.
Velebit, did you read Bespuca?
For Velebit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmk2rX0NEVU
For therealamericro: Thank you for your link in regards to my query as to the veracity – through Tudjman’s own words – of his split with Communism and his role as a Partisan. Unfortunately, the link you sent me only puzzles me more.”Stjepan Radic je govorio da treba njegovati svoju Hrvatsku zastavu jer tudja je uvijek znak tudjega gospodarstva. Pod tudjom zastavom ne ide se ni u svatove nit u rat. A nasa Hrvatska (unintelligible), Hrvatski grb I Hrvatska zastava su znak obstojnosti Hrvatskoga naroda na ovome tlu.Jer nasa je majka samo Hrvatska domovina.” These words were Radic’s words – he was reiterating a great man’s own words. I was asking for links to quotations from Tudjman’s own thoughts and words – which would leave no doubt as to their meaning. By quoting another person you are open to the possibility that others will misinterpret/ misrepresent your own thoughts and motivations. As the quote stands I agree totally with Radic’s words about the sacredness of our Croatian grb and flag – and that flag should never have been changed or tampered with – not even by Pavelic,and most certainly not by SURPRISINGLY! Tudjman. How does an individual reconcile that after supposedly hailing these words of Radic – when Tudjman becomes the first democratically elected President of Croatia – he negates all he said previously. Doesn’t stand as a testament to Tudjman’s epiphany.
I think that if you read Dr. Sadakovich’s book on the late and great Tudman, things will be much clearer.
Also HDZ platform from 1989 might be a big help, as well as Croatia’s Constitution.
In terms of citing Stjepan Radic – I think that explains Tudman’s political views and vision.
Just like when Paraga would cite Pavelic and praise NDH, it explained his views and vision.
Ina,Blagoje Adzic is a serb,was ministar of defence and Colonel General in JNA,Replaced Kadijevic in 1992,You have million reasons to hate the guy but you don’t,You bring him in here as the MAN OF HONOR and his book to tell us how bed Mesic and Spegelj were ,Now i am surprised he blames Mesic/Spegelj for everything instead of Milosevic and serbs even though he is serbian nationalist,I you read the book you will see how he hates Tudman too,You guys must be thinking we all are bunch a idiots.
Amir – if you feel like an idiot please don’t blame others – we live in a world where people have a right to opinion and opinion is just that not the truth – the truth is the material behind the opinion and some see it some don’t … by the way please stop throwing your darts of hate as mine, thank you.
Amir: I don’t say that murdering degenerate Adzic is a man of honor, but a murdering degenerate with whom Mesic, Spegelj, Boljkovac and Markovic all conspired with to overthrow the democratically elected Croatian government to have themselves installed as the puppet rulers of a rump Croatia missing 1/3 of its territory. Adzic admitted it.
Ina, thank you for your reply. I went and reread Tudjman’s speech (Dec.22/90) and I clearly see your point in that he does state that the enemies of Croatia are ” dogmatic Communists, Yugoslav Unitarists and Greater Serbian forces which have banned together to act against every Croatian national and statehood idea” which seems to prove your point that he was a repentant former Communist who has seen the folly of his ways – but the immediate sentence following is…”Not just those (national/statehood building ideas) of Starcevic and Radic to Stepinac and Hebrang but also from Strossmayer to Tito” The veracity and character of a man is judged by many things – but especially from the words he utters – and especially on the auspicious occasion of the Constitutional Proclamation ceremony. I am not trying to be obtuse, but how can Croatia’s first elected President, on such an occasion, lump together such ideologically diverse historical figures and hope to be understood as a reformed anticommunist?? So, whosoever reads this is supposed to clearly understand, according to Tudjman, that Tito was also responsible for the creation of modern day democratic Croatia? – that Tito was instrumental and had a Croatian national vision that he was creating and developing all his life? I submit that contrary to changing my opinion of Tudjman -his own words make it even more evident to me that he admired Tito and therefore his own role as a Partisan.
Well then Velebit – I guess you will need to read some of Tudjman’s books (e.g. Wastelands, his personal diary etc) to gather information you are seeking. I am very satisfied that he condemned communism and abandoned it in favour of democracy and if you are not then it is up to you to read up and educate yourself further. This blog has nothing to prove except promote the freedom and independence of Croatia as it came and some reasons why it came to be. Tudjman was at the helm of that process and to achieve what he has achieved with scanty and often hostile elements of environment is praiseworthy in the books of those who in 1990 voted to secede from Yugoslavia, in the books of others – well they’re not really most important in the equation of achieving the goal of independence, they would be more important if Croatia did not achieve independence
Ina, I think Velebit misses the fact that in statecraft, especially with an entire international media and diplomatic community being fed Belgrade agitprop and taking it as Biblical truth, that leaders have to say some things that invert the enemies propaganda – mentioning the Great Traitor / genocidal Austro Hungarian locksmith, an information warfare technique to cut Belgrades agitprop at its knees.
That cherry picked quotations without looking at the big picture of their meanings / timing of them in terms of information warfare in the life and death struggle for physical survival of the Croatian state and nation, and say, criticism of an awkward smile, a penchant for ugly ties, or the systematic use of big words in the proper context is all Tudman’s critics have against him, says a lot.
Tudman achieved every strategic and tactical objective he outlined in 1989. He was and remains the big geopolitical winner who Gen. Jacques Klein succinctly points out, has his place secure in history.
Everything else is ideological fetishist nit-picking.
Ina can you correct me or tell me where i went wrong in my thinking ‘If Tudman was interested in democracy as you claim,he would be most likely more interested in talent diaspora had to offer,even today i can’t comprehend the fact that he had well educated,talented patriotic croats and yet he didn’t use any of it besides there fortune and money,In the matter of fact they did horribly in Tudman’s regime.He had to appoint couple of them to high positions to speak to people with credibility and it’s only way to transition from communism to democracy,You have to have people with experience and knowledge to explain how good democracy would be for Croatia and it’s people,He would do great things by doing that ,one of them being bringing together diaspora and Croatia,Instead he tried to do it with hard core communists and thanks to that you have country ,democratic one on the paper and everything else reminds you of the worst form of communism,I think even Tito would tell you you went way too far,I mean which politician is honest today.
Hehehe Amir – you are so right there regarding the value of input diaspora could and still can bring. But you see you fail to consider that in fact Tudjman did/may have used various people to consult and contribute who necessarily did not need to return to Croatia to do that/ consultancy works in many ways. You fail to also consider that various individuals who returned from diaspora into positions in Croatia were brought there by political channels which worked against Tudjman in Croatia, from personal experience in knowing some many of these had no substantial experience in the West, in high position in western societies, to be able to contribute professionally. You fail to consider that Tudjman made great use of diaspora before and during the war for democracy but Croatian people are also capable of asserting a life they want – it just takes longer in circumstances that were/are there and if we acknowledge the circumstances then we can bring about better results, come up with better ways of overcoming obstacles etc
Ina, although I directed my comment to therealamericro, I certainly appreciate your response to my response to him/her. In your response to me(Sept.2 @ 10:53) you were asking for direction as to “where it’s said that Tudjman was apologetic for his role as a Partisan,Communist?” That is exactly the question that I initially posed(Sept.2 @1:00 a.m.) when I asked why anyone would expect a more democratic system there(Croatia) today and more of a move against Communism? “Did Tudjman set the example as first President of Croatia and apologize for any of his wrongdoings as a former Communist? Did he, as President, initiate a means by which former Communists could be indicted and face justice for their crimes? So, please if someone could find direct quotes on these subjects I would greatly appreciate it….” So the initial question as to an apology was posed by me in response to something I read on your blog. You then responded to my query by citing Tudjman’s Dec.22/90 Constitution Speech – which I told you didn’t in fact do anything except puzzle me even more since in that speech, Tudjman equates a Starcevic, Radic with a Tito!! which I thought served to entrench even more the value of Tito to Croatia by mentioning him in the same breath as the new Constitution of Croatia???And finally, to make the circle complete – therealamericro responded also to my sincere query by saying that Tudjman’s detractors ran the gambit from those who call Tudjman an “ustasa” and “nacionalista” etc. to those who accuse him of being an “unapologetic Communist, Titoist, even Yugoslav. My question to all of his detractors is which is it!? You all have to make up your mind.” I responded to the realamericro that I didn’t appreciate being lumped together by those who would call Tudjman an ustasa/nationalist – (because I would never make that mistake) and nor did I call him an unapologetic Communist, Titoist/Yugoslav. (I merely asked if he had ever apologized and if so if anyone could cite me some references!) And lastly, I questioned therealamericro specifically as to “Why is it so difficult for those who are actively safeguarding and promoting Tudjman’s legacy to Croatia and Croatians to come up with some links to his own speeches/writings/interviews that prove their point that he broke from and was apologetic for his role as a Partisan, his role as a Communist/Socialist?” This was directed to the realamericro specifically because he clearly said that Tudjman’s detractors were either calling him an ustasa/nationalist or they were calling him an unapologetic Communist etc. Extrapolating from that argument of his, one would suppose that therefore Tudjman’s supporters would call him an apologetic Communist. That is how this string of discussion came about – I was certainly not directing my last comment to you, nor was I ascribing the word ABANDONED with the word APOLOGIZED when I responded to realamericro. Hope it clears things up.
Velebit – yes I was not the one to introduce the word apologise into the discussion and I was not asking for direction as to where it could be found that Tudjman was apologetic etc I think you will find that to be the fact – now this fact dawned on me today and I replied that abandonment does not mean apology nor does abandonment require a personal apology… I have directed commentators to read Tudjman’s books and publications on the matter. If Tudjman’s speeches on the website and his books etc, his actions regarding Croatian secession from communist Yugoslavia, are not enough for you or anybody nothing I say will be enough. You conveniently circumvent the implications raging war of aggression in Croatia had on stately or presidential priorities in Croatia (and don’t forget the last re-integration of occupied territory occurred a year before Tudjman’s death) … I understand your response and perhaps apology or no apology for the horrors of communist regime deserves a special post
Ina,I trying to ask you ‘Why didn’t he do it’i mean why was Perkovic his adviser and not you for example.I care less about Susak but if we are going to be honest we must say “He wasn’t qualified for the job of Minister of Defence’I really can’t think of any good reason of why he would have Mesic.Manolic,Perkovic around if he as you claim was new,fresh and democratic man,In our conversation we don’t bring Granic,Racan,Banac ,Tudman had all the communists around himself by his choice and yet you for some reason believe how democratic he was.
Amir – I cannot answer your question as to why Tudjman took advisers that he did – he had his reasons and some of those are regretful – but at the end of the day Tudjman wanted to give people a chance, to reconcile the past … and perhaps it was the people and not Tudjman who weren’t ready for it? As far as I am concerned I did my fair share in lobbying in the West for Croatian independence at the time as well as loads of other things … Tudjman did have good advisers and not so good advisers – that’s the way the cookie crumbles in such circumstances as the ones Croatia found itself in then…the important thing is victory
Now, in response to Ina- (The comment was aimed at discussing whether Tudjman ever did or did not apologize for his Partisan/Communist/Socialist past).Ina suggested that he never did apologize and that it was not necessary for him to do so. “To abandon something does not necessarily mean one must apologize for it.” I certainly agree that if one abandons an old pair of shoes or any such possession one need not apologize for doing so. But when one makes a break from an ideology it is not so easy – not so straightforward. An ideology, as we have seen both in Croatia and throughout the world, has profound impacts and consequences on a country and it’s people and it is those impacts /repercussions that have to be addressed and recognized. When a person’s whole belief system is turned on its head, when one experiences for lack of a better word – an epiphany, a rebirth – does that not also entail an examination of self and a reflection as to any wrongdoings committed, any harm done due to any and all actions that that ideology/belief system required/compelled/expected of a person? My belief is that it does require a personal re-examination of self and of one’s actions and since none of us are without faults/wrongdoing then YES, I think the result must include at the very least a recognition of the negative impact one’s personal actions caused and certainly the recognition of the negative impact of the ideology as a whole caused the country. Why is it so unbelievable to expect a leader of a country to apologize – if not on his own behalf for whatever wrongdoings he may have committed – at the very least on behalf of his country and for any wrongdoings the prior govt. committed? It has been done- ie. South Africa & apartheid, Germany & Nazism, United States & Atomic Bomb on Japan, Canada & Japanese internment camps, Canada & Chinese Head Tax, Britain & slave trade, Britain & Maori land in Australia etc. Did we as Croatians not deserve an apology from Tudjman for his role as a leading proponent of the former Communist system? If not, then why not? What a truly great statesman he could have been to ALL Croatians if he clearly and unequivocally recognized that grave injustices were done both during and after WWII and if he had apologized on behalf of the new Croatian govt. to all those who were the victims of the flawed ideology he participated in!
Velebit – I’m sorry but I did not say that Tudjman never apologised. Who knows you might find it in one form or another as you wade through his works – I am satisfied with what Tudjman did as part of his role in getting rid of communism.
How many people apologize?
I peed on the rug in my bedroom when I was four at 3am in the morning because I was too lazy to walk five extra feet to the bathroom. I never admitted to being the cause of the bad smell nor have I ever apologized to my Mother for my youthful indiscretion.
Am I a bad person because of that? Should I not be allowed to work or go into politics because of that (absolutely NO political ambition, btw)?
That Tudman criticized Communism endlessly in his writing and speeches before and after Bespuca (i.e. for decades), before becoming president and while acting as president, indicates Tudman’s view on Communism, Yugoslavia and the Partisan movement itself (which he excoriated in Bespuca), clearly demonstrates a very long logic train and worldview that is obviously anti-Communist.
We can ask if Pavelic or anyone in his inner circle ever apologized for crimes committed in their political ideology’s name and their at least tacit responsibility for them, but, that would be even more pointless than asking if Tudman apologized (especially considering Tudman’s writings, speeches, Croatia’s Constitution, and the fact that the successor party to KPJ-KPH and all of KPJ-KPH’s 45-90 paid agitators waged a jihad of lies against Tudman the duration of his political career and presidency), because Pavelic and his inner circle didn’t see through a string of strategic and tactical victories on the political, diplomatic and military battlefields, securing a lasting Croatian democratic state, because ONLY Tudman did.
All that matters is the strategic and tactical victories that cement Tudman as the greatest Croatian statesman since Tomislav, Zvonimir and Radic.
Croatia’s strength at the time of Tudman’s death, and his funeral, all speaks for themself, and to his greatness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB4qvZZRtYc
The rest is minutia.
Thereal ,Why don’t you just visit Tudman’s wiki page and only read part “WAR INVOLVEMENT IN BIH,It tells you right there how great Tudman was.
Oh Amir Pilipovic what will you do if the Cro 6 from Herceg Bosna and with them Tudjman are acquitted by the ICTY appeal court. Not a good day for you at all. Now, Wikipedia is not your credible source of information because we all know anyone can write those articles and information is not really checked. While there may be good information on Wiki there is also a huge deal of bias and misrepresentation. It is quite interesting that you ask readers to read the section about Tudjman on Wikipedia and particularly his involvement in B & H war. Hahahaha you poor sod – it seems Wikipedia also talks of information about the so-called meeting in Karadjordjevo being a rumor, made up shit, from Stipe Mesic mind and gob… Then about tapes etc Mesic gave out – with all the effort Mesic went into to give away state secrets, to doctor translations etc etc Tudjman still came out as Acquitted of JCE via ICTY Gotovina and Markac! And, oh boy – don’t you love this Wikipedia article Amir – it talks about the May 2013 judgment of JCE in the Cro 6 from Herceg Bosna but it so conveniently omits to mention that the tribunal’s main judge Antonetti there dissented … Hm this article on Tudjman is just tailor made for you Amir Pilipovic. Enjoy while you can. By it it looks as though the Bosnian Muslims did nothing but placed themselves peacefully in harm’s way … hahaha yeah right … so far Bosnian Muslims have managed to escape the judgment eye for their horrifying crimes against Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats – well I don’t think that will last … enjoy while you can …
Being that one of the presiding judges was an avowed Hungarian Communist fanatic who took part in the crushing of the Hungarian 1956 Revolution, the outcome of the initial trial – premised on hearsay, conjecture, he-said she-said, cherry picking of quotes entirely out of context (and out of chronological order, literally decades off), the suppression of evidence (Lt. Col. Dr. Charles Schrader’s book), etc., it is no surprise that the outcome is such.
But, as our new guest points out, Antonnetti’s dissenting opinion is massive, and it shreds the (lack of) reasoning for the conviction(s).
It is hilarious how, in terms of HRHB, the dispassionate, professional analysis of the MU-Croat civil war by Lt. Col. Dr. Charles Schrader (PhD from Columbia), Professor of Military History at both the US Army War College and West Point, is “stupid,” “naive,” “politically charged” bla bla, but the contradictory illogical construction of a bunch of lawyers and unqualified judges with no military experience or military law experience is “expert.”
What a crock.
Amir, the chronological order of events debunk your fables and the monstrous, illogical, contradictory, Hiter show-trial constructions of the prosecution.
Even in a worst case scenario, Praljak et. al. are innocent to everyone with any common sense who know that Jan 2 follows Jan 1, that 1992 follows 1991, and that if the ABiH spent six months digging in positions facing the HVO which was fighting the VRS, instead of facing their positions against the VRS, that the strategy of the HArmija was to try (and fail, epically) to carve their own Dzamahariyah out of B&H at the expense of the Croats who in HRHB alone took in 220,000 Bosniak refugees and trained and armed the Bosniak men they planned to “ethnically cleanse.”
Here is the 1993 Bosnjacki Sabor, watch all 14 videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tekPJMQefU.
Well my friend I do have issues with ICTY but will respect there ruling either way .However it will not change the truth or text from the Wiki .besides i wanted to point wiki to you all becouse you sound as hardcore defenders of Tudman here,where no evidence is not needed nor required while you fail in places where it’s needed,and it’s just another point of mine,I hope that you know millions get there info from wiki and that you can edit wiki with the fruit ,but it seems you are fruitless ,just talk no action To answer your question ‘SURE I DO,BUT IAM NOT SURE YOU SHOULD,’it also says how Tudman covered up his involvement in war crimes at AHMICI,.Let me give you an advice,’If you for any reason get convicted and get 10 years and if your legal team says ‘We have expected this kind of verdict’Well it means you are screwed and your defense thinks you are guilty.I just wanted point out how the war was fought everywhere including wiki and it sounds you lost.
Mercedword,There are couple problems with your premise,people too often say that Hague has too many audio tapes ,transcripts of Tudman,which is the truth only a problem is that they are mostly from meetings which include Boban.Praljak.Bobetko etc so none of them can say ‘Well I didn’t know’ while Gotovina really didn’t know what Tudman’s plan was,Croatia has no an attorney appointed yet so you would be better of calling Josipovic to do something about it,What you have red on wiki is just little part of it,others reveal way too much ,anyways you will know in very near future the real reason why no dignitaries showed up at his funeral.When you start considering that ICTY has found that Tudman was in full control of the HVO,found that Croatia was aggressor on BIH,have convicted some Generals of HVO then and only then you will be able to understand that acquittal of the 6 and Tudman is almost impossible but if it happens you will realize it’s not going to change anything.
I’ll bud in braco pd – it’s absolutely atrocious of you to say “if it happens (acquittal) it’s not going to change anything “- and YOU are the one who keeps pounding here that ICTY should be respected. Now I see that for you it should be respected if rulings go the way you want, if not then it should not be respected. Nuff said about that.
I am Bosniak/Bosnian and I care less about serbs and it’s the reason I asked readers to read only that part but you are more then welcome to read it all,specially the quote from the only judge you like.We got away in part because we provided the best lawyers a money can buy while you went local and chip.Don’t you find it weird that Anntoneti believes and says ‘If Tudman was alive he would be here sitting on accused bench’and then dissented,I guess you bought there crap.When it comes to us Bosniaks i will have to disappoint you by saying it’s over and there is nothing you can do about it,If you did’t have evidence while they have been in Hague ,I don’t think you have it right now nor will you have it in the future.
Amir – but Tudjman was on the accused bench even if he was dead – and then he was acquitted of participation in alleged crimes and crimes. You interpret “would be sitting on benches”as ïs guilty” – there are multitudes of people who sit on accused’ benches only to be found innocent in the end. You actually say things that are very very repugnant of a human being. As far as Hague is concerned it is only a very small part of this world and not the only place where crimes are prosecuted.
Thereal,I think you may have a problem with Tudman because it’s him who was trying to make a deal with serbs,the one who covered his involvement in war crimes at Ahmici.All i really did .was to point out to you how i am a winner and you are not.Besides Tudman rebuffs you and your propaganda ,he stops your spin not mine,When i started commenting ,arguing with you couple months ago I thought oh god how naive this people is,because i have known about wiki page and evidence used in Hague,I hope you can see today how KEEPING ENEMIES EVEN CLOSER has backfired at you and Tudman and how it was very bad idea to have Manolic in charge of SIS,the tapes,or some of them have been secretly made by SIS.But anyways now you can see how i always win.How do you feel today when we both know that Tudman in his own words has caught you lying.selling air.By the way tapes have been authenticated and even defense acknowledged it so in the future we can skip authenticity of it and just move to the facts.Just keep in mind that ICTY has 100 audio tapes,17000 k transcript,all about Tudman.
Thereal.It seems you are not a winner after all but I have to admit you have made me wonder with all of your evidence and trashing of fellow croats,I thought to my self ,this guy must be a serb,You have trashed everything and everybody in your defense of Tudman so I figured on the end well he is just hardcore supporter of Tudman.the one willing to throw his own people under the bus for Saint.I also thought you are just wasting your time when you started posting links of Delic ,Halilovic and mixing of the dates,numbers etc but your link of Kljujic really was the last nail in the coffin.Can you just imagine if you had to provide evidence to Hague, If I was you I would not complain too much about ICTY because they have acquitted Gotovina/Markac,i mean people may think that you have problem with that since we all know you are not hypocrite.
Ina,I hope you have red the text and fully understand that Tudman if was alive would be convicted together with 6 Croats and would be convicted thanks to himself because he really made it very easy even though he is dead.If you ever googled Transcripts of Tudman and red it you would be like WOW.’WHY THE HELL DIDN’T YOU BURN TAPES’ besides He was found guilty of JCE and i am not sure i can interpret it differently.
It seems Amir it’s you who doesn’t understand and your hatred just keeps winning you over. Tudjman has been convicted or found guilty together with 6 Cro from Herceg Bosna even though he is dead and had no opportunity to defend himself – but that part of justice doesn’t factor in your mind. You simply don’t care that people have a right to an appeal and that other matters may come to light during an appeal …
I honestly have no idea where you see hatred in my comments where i state nothing but facts,If Tudman was dead and had no opportunity to defend him self, he would not be first one,besides where have you and thereal been.The other think you may not get is the fact that the text comes from Blaskic’s trial and it’s legal y closed case and there is nothing you can do about it but except it for what it is.So your appeal time is up on that one,can’t do it legally.Blaskic was found guilty and sentenced to 45 years in 2000,the sentence was commuted to 9 in 2004 on an appeal,He was the one who provided all the evidence on Tudman’s cover up of his involvement at Ahmici.There is no third time the charm in Hague nor legal system nor is Blaskic interested in appealing it since he is the one who threw Tudman under the train,You will have to live with it. It’s worth mentioning that his legal team was Nobilo/Hodak.
Oh Amir – I am not appealing anything, I am not involved, I can live without Blaskic but I cannot live without the ideals and reality Tudjman set in motion – they just make my life wonderful And as to witnesses etc – they’re only that and the man about whom they talk was not there to respond and you Amir, no anyone else can know what if he was there to respond – so stop thinking you know, you’re just putting your hatred for Tudjman in a bigger spotlight with that. You can hate him as much as you want just as I can love him as much as I want. I live with that love quite happily thank you for asking
Well i know he wasn’t there but somehow it was all about him and it’s why i asked you’Where have you been’if nothing but to say how good Tudman was,Blaskic was really forgotten by everybody while he was in Hague,When Delic,Halilovic and Divjak were in Hague we provided and paid the best legal team a money can bye while on the other hand i wouldn’t say it for you.It sounds that your defense as of today is YES BUT HE IS DEAD.He wasn’t there but his soul was,and it told us all about it.and its where the wiki text comes from.
Of course it was about him Amir! You forget about what was happening then and how charges were made up behind the scenes using some “very powerful” personalities to help ICTY prosecution including Serbs who had lots to gain in equating aggressor with victim – this is for Croatia side of things as far as B i H is concerned as I said before I WILL NOT ENTER INTO DISCUSSIONS WITH YOU OR ANYBODY WHO SEES THE COURT MATTER FINISHED WHEN IT ISN’T SO DO NOT EVEN BOTHER … where does wiki text come from, you ask. I wouldn’t have a clue but I can imagine and it ain’t pretty!
Well as the text says ,Tudman was overall or full control of the HVO,He covered his involvement in war crimes at Ahmici,He was trying to make a deal with serbians to split BIH,all of it comes from an appeal case of Blaskic,meaning it’s done deal.JCE is really that,so acquittal will not change anything legally.It says Tudman is responsible for everything that has happened in BIH and Bosniak or Group of Bosniaks don’t need more then that to sue Croatia and Tudman,JCE would be just a plus but would not change a case legally nor the way they need to proceed forward.And it’s why I respect ICTY.
The only problem with your thought braco pd is that if on a similar matter there is acquittal then all other case before that would be deemed to have unsafe verdicts … ah the beauty of justice – but you can keep on dreaming and start suing … there’ll also be a defence side to put things out – or perhaps you’re one of those people that think starting a lawsuit is enough to secure victory in the end – it’s not
No serbs have nothing to do with Blaskic’s case,Blaskic was convicted of war crimes done to Bosniaks .Serbs have nothing to do with the 6 neither.I have explained to you where the text comes from ,didn’ask you but did ask WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ,meaning did you provide evidence ,money,witnesses or anything that could have helped to Blaskic or the 6 for that matter.
You must think Amir that no one knows anything but you – I am well aware of Blaskic case and who gave evidence and testimony – including Mesic – and Mesic has yet to answer for his truth I hope if not while living then when dead – as to serb contribution in the corridors and back rooms of ICTY don’t be so sure there was none…
Well there wasn;t one unless you consider Mesic a serb,besides Mladic,Karadzic were on the run and serbs refused to cooperate with ICTY at that time,Serbs have nothing to do with 6 and rest of croats.Mesic was a witness as president at Milosevic’s trial and claimed that Karadordevo was real.and ICTY has used that testimony vs the 6.
No Amir I did not mean Mesic, but since you seem to have been a fly on the wall everywhere, who am I to try and convince you otherwise. Karadjordjevo was real alright, only nobody knows what really happened there but, hey, if that doesn’t bother you, no skin off my back.
Amire, last I checked Blaskic was a FREE man.
Open your eyes and quit reading the Commi press (zuta stamp) and propaganda that is being fed to you. Learn outside of what you are spoon fed. I don’t know where you live..but I live abroad and have been learning about Cro/BiH since I was a kid.
Here’s an example of reality…Srebrenica is not the greatest mass grave of Bosniaks. The largest killing of Croats and Muslims happened in 1945. I am sure you have heard of Bleiburg and the death marches. It was not just Muslim and Croat soldiers killed by Partisans then but women, children, the elderly. By some estimates between 300-700,000. Mass graves are still being found in Slovenia. They haven’t even done an assessment in Cro and BiH. My point is open your mind. The wars in the 1990s happened because were never dealt with the evils of 1945 – 1989. We can split hairs etc but that’s the reality.
I never made a claim he was in prison but that he is free convicted war criminal who served his time,When it comes to Bleiburg in matter in fact i know everything about it too,All killed have been labeled Ustashas and many were ,But i do have a question for you WHO DO YOU THINK KILLED THEM ,Croats,Serbs or Muslims,Well you are correct if you answer Croats or partisans mostly made of Croats.It’s real reason Nobody from Tudman to Josipovic wants to talk about it ,all of them are mum when you mention Bleiburg.
Well Amir, It’s obvious that you would like it to be Croats but you will find that there was no pure Croat communist command but rather consisted of other nationalities from Yugoslavia. At the end of the day it does not matter which nationality but the fact that they were communist and committed communist crimes
I don’t dream ,I don’t benefit either way but to be honest and not rude to you,you are making cardinal mistake because you lack the knowledge or you must be too ignorant.While Tudman was acquitted of JCE he was found guilty of war crimes and ethnic cleansing,And it’s what you don’t get,don’t need JCE legally but conviction of war crimes,Acquitting him they didn’t acquit Kordic for example so your theory must be wrong.Don’t you find it weird that the defense didn’t defend single croat regarding Cro-Bosniak war.
I have made my conclusion braco pd – you are just not worth the effort of reply, discussion etc – I could also say to you: you are making a cardinal mistake because you lack knowledge! And that is probably the real truth but I’ve been trying to be nice so far … and just by the by Kordic still maintains he is innocent – and who do you think you are to say otherwise – I have actually heard on the radio this morning of a man being released from prison after serving 15 years of life sentence for murder he did not commit – the real murderer was just identified the day before! When I come across a case where due process has been exhausted then I accept it, I may not like it but I accept it – you do not and will not it seems… you have had plenty of space here to put your point across and frankly it’s getting BORING
DELETED INAPPROPRIATE AND OFFENSIVE … your part of robbing.
braco pd – I am so happy I robbed your lies, and cynicism, blocked your bullying – sparing the public from the bile you spew against persons when you see they are in the right and you are wrong! It makes you angry, I see, that one more person is spreading Croatian truth.
You guys must be living in Lala-Land,Braco may be making your point as far as i know but deleting it you are making his and mine .When i say and believe that you are trying too hard to keep the truth out.You are familiar with Blaskic’s case and yet you never wrote about the facts ,the truth of his case but you did skip it all together saying that you believe in due process .Well he did in fact get due process on an appeal in 2004 so i have no an idea of which due process you are talking…
Well Amir – if braco pd or anyone else whose comments get moderated and deleted steered away from personal insults of people and facts without regard to the truth (irrefutable evidence) then those comments would not be deleted. Since you mention Tihomir Blaskic and that he received due process – that may be so as far as matters addressed by the court BUT the court in that case never really adequately assessed the nature of Croat-Muslim war in Bosnia in 1993–1994. That the second part of due process that needs to be addressed one way or another, so far it had slipped through the cracks. But let me briefly remind the readers about the ICTY appeal ruling in Blaskic case in 2004, since you bring it up (perhaps a new blog “Bosnia and Herzegovina, the War,and the Future” might be a good idea for someone to start/ you seem like the person who could do that) :
Associated Press, July 2014: “An appeals panel at the U.N. war crimes tribunal on Thursday dismissed the conviction of a Bosnian Croat for crimes against Muslims in 1993 and reduced his sentence to nine years from 45 years.
Gen. Tihomir Blaskic, 43, has spent more than eight years in prison for ordering an ethnic cleansing campaign against Muslim villages in central Bosnia that left hundreds dead and forced tens of thousands more to flee.
Blaskic voluntarily surrendered to the U.N. court on April 1, 1996. At the time, his sentence was the harshest in the tribunal’s history.
In a sweeping rejection of the lower court’s conclusions, the five-member appeals panel said the court had misinterpreted the law and punished Blaskic unfairly for the crimes of forces under his authority. It quashed both the earlier ruling and sentence.
The panel did find him guilty of lesser crimes of illegal detainment and inhumane treatment of prisoners.
The defendant will be released after serving the remaining few months of the nine-year sentence. He can also apply for early release.
In a two-hour reading at the Yugoslav tribunal, presiding judge Fausto Pocar of Italy dismissed 16 of 19 counts in Blaskic’s initial indictment.
In March 2000, Blaskic was found guilty of so-called “command responsibility” at the peak of the 1992-1992 Bosnian war, including crimes against humanity and grave breeches of the Geneva Convention. But those convictions were thrown out on Thursday.
Among the most severe crimes dropped against Blaskic were a series of massacres in the village of Ahmici in April 1993 that killed dozens.
“The appeals chamber considered that the trial chamber’s assessment was wholly erroneous” and that it had not been “proven beyond reasonable doubt that the appellant is responsible for ordering the crimes in Ahmici and neighboring villages on April 16, 1993.”
It upheld three counts of grave breeches of the Geneva Convention related to the imprisonment of Muslims at a series of camps in Bosnia where detainees were forced to dig trenches, build fences and used as human shields during shelling by enemy forces”.
OH and by the way Amir – next time you accuse anyone of not putting out the truth make sure you actually specify which facts that appear here are not the truth – for all sources cited contain the truth which anyone can verify. And, please count opinion as only that, an opinion on presented truth/facts. You seem to confuse the two
One of the best books written about Muslim crimes against Croats is: Dossier- Crimes of Muslim units against the Croats in BiH 1992.-1994., People can even download it from this page: http://www.hercegbosna.org/STARO/engleski/download.html
Re Tudjman… The below is one of the best articles written about Tudjman and the war.
Croatia needed to and needs to pass lustration laws ASAP to avoid the Reds from taking power again.
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/stone4.html
Thank you Veronika – couldn’t agree more re lustration!
Ina, did you open the link above?
I didn’t read the article b/c I know that antiwar was and remains a Serb revisionist mouthpiece. I won’t check the link posted above because, well, I don’t trust those folks with my IP address.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that it blames the “Communist” Tudman for all of Croatia’s economic troubles, not Serbia’s war and not paying for reparations, it doesn’t mention that Croatia’s debt was barely 9 bn after a war that cost 80 bn in arming and nearly 30 bn in damage, with all major / critical state owned companies (telecommunications, petrol, post, national bank) solvent and with majority RoCroatia ownership; I can see the “Serbs forced to rebel,” “largest ethnic cleansing in Europe since WWII,” and other fables included in the text as well as a reference to NDH and the trillions killed by Fra Brzica in one night with a “special knife to kill Serbs,” etc.
If it is a dispassionate, fact-based and well reasoned article, well, then, my apologies to the author of the text.
Just a taste of some text at antiwar.com: http://www.antiwar.com/orig/dakovic3.html.
Gordan Malic, as well as the late Stella Jatras (they say that you only say good things about the dead, well, Stella is dead… DEAFENING SILENCE), is / was a regular contributor there.
So I’m not holding my breath.
I have read it therealamericro – it’s a 2000 piece just around the time of elections (when Racan and Mesic were elected) – not too bad but still some stuff debatable and others outdated, it tries very hard not to come out opinionated in bias, it is a shame though such texts cannot be deleted from the web since they do not contain any “note” of correction e.g. such as ICTY appeal judgment in case of Operation Storm and Serbs leaving Croatia – nevertheless I like this part of its conclusion: “Croatia is one of the most beautiful countries in Europe. Its former government – and Franjo Tudjman – probably thought that the West would welcome its independence. How wrong they were. In 1991 the world of the British Foreign Office and the US State Department did not want Yugoslavia to break up. It has taken them nearly 10 years to be on the brink of putting it back together again under the subterfuge of the Stability Pact” – it does say a great deal I think.
I stand corrected.
The quote above is spot on.
I thought so too, therealamericro.
Ina I would like that it never happened,wish it was biggest lie,But if we are going to be honest for a moment we have to call it for what it is,Do you ever wonder why you Croats never blamed serbs for it but partisans,Well the reason is really simple THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH BLEIBURG.It doesn’t matter who was in command of those murderers but who was killing his own people.
Amir – You head must be so filled with confusion. Who said Croats never blamed Serbs for communist/partisan crimes? You’re making things up and it’s quite irritating. Tito’s Partisan troops were made up of a great number of Serbs – and in this case the commanders are important because they ordered massacres and/or executed them…have you erased for example the name of Simo Dubajic, Petar Drapsin …lots has been written aboiut them in relation to communist crimes and they were Serb …some 13,000 massacred at Kocevski rog… and as the article says “Bleiburg” is a symbol of communist crimes which were enormous including the ones perpetrated in Bleiburg in 1945. So, don’t play smart, it’s irritating and offensive to the memory of the victims… I am sure if one dug into records and studies of the times there would be quite a few more Serbs involved in massacring Croats then – Serbs were massacred too by the communist partisans, so were Slovenes and Bosnians…
Well you never blamed serbs for Bleiburg nor did you blame Muslims,Albanians,Makedonians but you did blame partisans all along.Partisans have never been made of mixed nationalities but for example Croatian ones have been made mostly of Croats.And to be clear we are talking about Bleiburg and crimes have been done by Croat Partisans ,Besides i was there three times and spoke to countless number of people and for your info none of them believes serbs have done it,rather they all are pretty sure in Croats.So let’s just recognize and respect historical facts.
Amir – to me it does not matter which nationality were the communist partisan criminals – whoever they were must be held to account or at least identified if they’re dead and the whole communist regime condemned. I am sure that I could say hey I have spoken to some people and they say this and that and not give their names so people can make judgment as to whether they’re worth listening to or just idiots. I do not even know why it matters to you that Serbs did not do it or that Croats did it in 1945 + a crime is a crime and no we are not talking about Bleiburg – you are – my article talks of all communist crimes (Bleiburg is just a symbol of WWII+ crimes against Croats just as Vukovar i just a symbol for all 1990’s crimes against Croats).
Well Veronika brought up Bleiburg and tried to lecture me on it.Who did crimes in Bleiburg matters for couple reasons,one of them being so that people can hold a person or government or even organisation accountable.Second reason is so we know on which door to knock and not to waste our time anymore.And third and most important reason is not for me or us but for those who don’t get amount of hate some Croatian groups have for each other.It would also show that Croats have done massacre on it’s own people etc,etc.I hope it would explain why you and many others have way too much hate for Tito,Communism and Communists,otherwise they will never understand you because most of them lived good and did good for themselves in Tito’s regime.