“Tito is in Hell” – Stjepan Mesic, 1992
When children know or think someone is telling lies they shout: “Liar, liar, pants on fire”. I’m not a child, I’m a well informed adult and, indeed, was present when in 1992 Croatia’s former president Stjepan Mesic visited Australia in his capacity as one of the leaders of the Croatian Democratic Union (HDZ), and in his speeches he, in no uncertain terms praised the WWII pro-Nazi Independent State of Croatia as well as WWII pro-Communist Partisans, placing them on equal footing as victors for Croatian state. Now Mesic is denying this even though irrefutable evidence exists.
I shout: Liar, liar, pants on fire!
When one of these speeches appeared on Youtube some seven years ago, Mesic first said it was a political stunt by his opponents, that the film was doctored, that he never said those things … when truth struck and the authenticity of the speech video was confirmed, Mesic as president of Croatia actually appeared on a televised address to the nation saying that he had to talk like that because Croats in the diaspora were all fired-up on fascism (Ustashism)!
Furthermore he said that the 30-second video was taken out of context and that he could not remember if he made such a speech, or where, that he does not know if the video is authentic!
This history has repeated itself last Sunday, which suggests that the man is not to be trusted with what he says is the truth.
Mesic appeared on Croatian TV last Sunday 6 October on the On Sunday at Two program. The TV interview by Aleksandar Stankovic was particularly organised around the issue of bribes for armoured military vehicles deal with Finland’s Patria about which I wrote in my previous post.
At 43.46 minute of this HRT TV interview Mesic was asked: “How could it have happened to you to praise the Independent State of Croatia (NDH)?
Mesic replied: “I never praised NDH”
Stankovic: “Well OK, you said that it was an expression of historical aspirations …”
Mesic: “I did not say …”
Stankovic: “Well OK, you said over there at the assembly in Australia…”
Mesic: “Never… no aspirations, you have falsified that a little but probably because you are not informed.”
Stankovic: “Well, I’m not uniformed … the speech from 1992 exists…”
Mesic: “Well, the speech exists and you find it and then we can…”
Stankovic: “We have spoken about that before, you do not need to deny it now, I remember you told me in the program that your theory was that Croatia was being created then and then one said what one didn’t mean …”
Mesic: “No, no, I said that what I thought but I would now perhaps reformulate but also say that what I thought, that is what did I say, I said that Croats won twice, the first time the Kingdom of Yugoslavia disappeared because we were all against the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, Ustashes did not topple Kingdom of Yugoslavia, it disappeared by the will of the occupying forces but it was of benefit to us because Yugoslavia disappeared, and the real victory we won was with the NOB (National Liberation Movement) victory in 1945 when we came on the side of victory and were on the side of victory … that is what I said”.
So, Mr Aleksandar Stankovic and the world’s public, since Mesic asked for the speech to be found I have made the effort in finding it – for truth’s sake!
Here is what Mesic actually said in 1992 (and I personally remember he said the same on a number of occasions and in the video below there’s a glimpse of me in the background at the end of the video, so it is authentic 100%): “Those who are older remember that in 1971 Tito, who created Yugoslavia, which was not Croatian but Croatian only in that Croats lived in it but did not rule in it, said that river Sava will flow upstream before Croatia will have its army, and now if he hears me from Hell I must tell him that as far as we are concerned Sava can flow even sideways but Croatia has its army and its state. We have created a state after 900 years, but during those 900 years Croats did not stand still, they were always determined for the Croatian thing and Croatian state. Even in the Second World War Croats were victorious twice and we must tell that to everyone, to our friends and to our enemies. Croats were victorious when in 1941 on 10th of April they declared the Croatian state. Because Croats did not declare that state because they were fascists, but because they had a natural and historical right to their state. But the results of WWII are known and it’s also known that Croats won for the second time in that war because they found themselves at the table together with the Allies and to those who consider that Croats were on the other side, who want to win over those Allies and muddy the Croatian deed, we must tell them that Croats were for a Croatian state, and Croats did not fight for the white or the red flag but for the red-white-blue flag”.
The point of this is not just what Mesic said but also how he attempts to discredit the truth and make up stories as he goes; even attack those who put out the truth if that truth goes against him! It transpires from all this that the man was never to be fully trusted and his stories and spins should be put aside and the Croatian office of state prosecutor must seriously investigate the allegations against Mesic that suggest he may have been involved in serious corruption in the Patria case of armoured military vehicle supply from Finland.
I, for one, am disgusted at the reality that Croatian taxpayers and deficient government budget keep funding Mesic’s office as former president, with all the trappings that cost millions every year and yet Mesic has the hide to lie like this to the very people out of whose taxes his office is funded! I guess corrupt practices and political underground that keep the so-called antifascists or communists like Mesic afloat in the public arena are strong in Croatia.
Mesic who places himself at the helm of antifascist movement in Croatia says that Josip Broz Tito went to Hell after he died.
Therefore, as I see it, he subscribes to the ideals of those he himself considers went to Hell after they died! Will he now may say that the above video from 1992 when he said Tito was in Hell is also a falsehood! What will his antifascist association say when they hear what he said about their celebrated Tito? Will he also now say that he had to speak like that in the diaspora because the diaspora did not like Tito? Well, let him try – he will not succeed because there were multitudes of persons in his audience then who came from the so-called “Yugoslav” (as opposed to Croatian) clubs in the diaspora. They were all there because Franjo Tudjman managed to reconcile both sides of Croatian WWII politics into one single aim: independent and democratic state of Croatia. Ina Vukic, Prof. (Zgb); B.A., M.A.Ps. (Syd)
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I watched the program on Sunday and couldn’t believe my ears, what a liar. There is NO doubt that the video is authentic. Those were his words – whether he meant them or not is a different story. He was collecting big $$ so he probably was saying things he knew the diaspora wanted to hear.
Yes, the video is authentic Didi. One thing is true: Mesic would say anything to promote his own personal political agenda which had to mu opinion little to do with independence of Croatia even if he does give himself credit for it.
Did Mesic lie,of course he did because all the politicians do,His little pep-talk was brilliant when you take the audience in the account,You have many USTASAs or NDH supporters to say “I can’t believe i wrote a 50000$ check to Mesic’ same goes for HDZ and Tudman supporters,So i guess he knew his audience and how to fire you up while you on the other hand didn’t know your speaker that well.Mesic was a communist out of the gate and has never tried to hide it.I mean all of you have to admit you got fooled by good old communist and all the hate for the guy comes because of that,
I’ll bud in Amir – Mesic did not fool me personally for long – by May 1992 I commenced my communications regarding his political agenda for personal gain etc, he was ousted in early 1994 out of HDZ, out as Speaker of Parliament etc. Cheques that are in question were not written in Mesic’s name but in the names of Hospitals in Croatia, in the name of Croatian National Fund etc – but that will be coming up for proper look in once the Croatian authorities decide to pursue the matter… Tudjman never ever “lost” a single cheque if any was given to him… you do not have Ustasas or NDH supporters, you have supporters of independent and democratic Croatia in his audience in Australia in 1992 and many were from the so-called Yugoslav clubs then. So, keep your sick mind to yourself. There is no hate here just looking at facts, but like you, Mesic too likes to attack people who bring out the facts in order to divert the attention from the facts brought out.
Amir Pilipovic, you must think all the people listening to Mesic were idiots – well they were not, most came to listen to him because Tudjman was not there. But, this blog is not about what Mesic said but about his lies about what he said, he tried to deny it and then he said it was like a “pep” talk. Bullshit! You seem to have a habit of bringing Tudjman into everything so I can only guess that you resent the fact that Tudjman WAS LOVED, IS LOVED – the love Mesic never had and never will. Everything diaspora did for Croatia was backed up by its love for Tudjman’s ideals for independent and democratic Croatia, Mesic saw the opportunity and took it performing antics and telling lies all the way through it now seems. I do not think diaspora got fooled by anyone – Croatia is independent full stop job done! Diaspora played a huge part in that.
Amir Pilipovic – HDZ and Tudjman have nothing to do with what Mersic said here. Keep to the topic: what Mesic said, what he lied about, Mesic praised both the NDH and the communists, Mesic said Tito was in Hell… funny, but your stule reminds me of Mesic – hm?
One of Tudjman’s more brilliant strategic moves at the beginning of the war, or better put, at the start of serb aggression, was to call for a truce between the Croatian left and the Croatian right in order to be able to defend the country from the heavily armed Serbs. While the average Croatian wholeheartedly bought into this program, turncoat pieces of dogshit like Mesic et al used this to pull their own ‘bait-and-switch’ program that would ride the wave of patriotic sentiment; while their cronies raped and plundered the country, destroying the economy, and extinguishing national pride, and in typical yugo-bolshevik chickenshit manner, blaming a patriot, Tudjman for all that happened.
Hear, hear, Brankec. Thanks for sharing this very truth
The many lies of Bearded Jasenovac exposed:
http://www.fizzit.net/vijesti-i-politika/komentari-i-kolumne/4643-mesic
QUOTE:
“Nikad nisam bio svjedok u Hagu!”. Bio je to naslov intervjua sa Stipom Mesićem u Vjesniku, jednom davno, prije nego li je prvi put postao predsjednik. Kad je iz Haga procurio transkript njegovog svjedočenje, Stipe je izmijenio priču: “Bio sam svjedok u Hagu, ali nisam svjedočio protiv Hrvatske”. Iako je iz transkripata bilo vidljivo da je nedvosmisleno optužio Hrvatsku za agresiju na BiH.
Jednako je bilo i u svim drugim slučajevima. Suočen s dokazima, Stipe je mijenjao priču, ali strogo se držeći makijavelističkog pravila: “priznaj tek kad ti dokažu, i samo onoliko koliko su ti dokazali”. Stipe je bezbroj puta ulovljen u lažima, ali kad god bi iscurio kakav video, fotografija, ili dokument koji bi ga inkriminirao on je hladnokrvno nastavio sve drskije lagati, što je rijedak talent:
“Nikad nisam pjevao ustaške pjesme.”
“Nisam pjevao, samo sam otvarao usta”
“Pjevao sam, ali nisam tako mislio”.
Da bi se danas kod Stankovića vratio prvoj verziji: “To je montaža!”
Pa zatim:
“Nisam nikad razgovarao s Polančecom.”
“Razgovarao sam s Polančecom, ali nisam tražio da Podravka nekom da kredit.”
“Srđan Mladinić nije moj prijatelj.”
“Srđan Mladinić je moj prijatelj, ali ja nisam zvao Podravku da on dobije kredit.”
“Netko je zvao Podravku iz mog ureda, netko je koristio moj telefon al ja nemam pojma tko, nisam ja”.
“Jesam, zvao sam Podravku da da Mladiniću kredit, ali to nije korupcija, ja sam ih samo prijateljski zamolio da mu pomognu, tu nema ničeg nezakonitog”.
“Nisam primio nikakav ček od iseljenika.”
“Ček je negdje žena izgubila dok je prala hlače. Ne, nije istina da je to krađa, dokažite mi da sam negdje unovčio taj ček!”
(Stipe zna, naravno, da je ček gotovina, kao i novčanica i mjenica: može li se pljačkaš banaka vaditi na to da nije kriv jer nije potrošio ukradeni novac?)
“Nisam poslao Perkovića da ucjenjuje Zagorca”
“Poslao sam Perkovića Zagorcu, ali to je bilo u interesu RH. Ja ne stojim iza otmice Zagorčevog sina.”
7120.4743.mesic-nisam bio na suduI tako dalje, do najnovije današnje laži: “Samo jednom su mi nudili mito!”. Svatkom tko je ikad u životu bio na bilo kakvom položaju od šaltera u gruntovnici do doktora ili saborskog zastupnika gotovo svakodnevno nude mito, ali Stipi u sedamdeset godina su samo jednom ponudili mito! Jer glas o njegovom poštenju ide tako daleko da se ni ne usude mititi ga! I on ga je, poštenjačina i ljudina kakav je vazda i bio, uredno odbio. Zanimljivo da je sam priznao kako je mnogo ljudi “lobiralo” kod njega. Redom mafija i političari. I nitko ništa da ponudi?
Dakle, da reduciramo stvari do kraja:
“Da, uzeo sam ček u Australiji, nisam znao da je to za Hrvatsku, mislio sam da je za mene!”
“Da, bio sam u Hagu, nisam znao da svjedočim, mislio sam da je to za autobiografiju!”
“Da, uzeo sam od svakog tko me posjetio proviziju, nisam znao da se to ne smije!”
“Da, pustio sam engleske obavještajce da kopaju po državnim tajnama iz predsjedničkog arhiva, mislio sam da je to skrivena kamera!”
“Dva milijuna za kupovinu kuće mi je posudio prijatelj kojeg ne želim imenovati, vratit ću mu od svoje penzije, kad budem imao!”
U svakoj bar napola normalnoj državi, Stipe Mesić bi sve što ima za objasniti objašnjavao pred sudom, ne pred miliijunskim auditorijem, uz svesrdnu pomoć svog drugara Ace čija je emisija postala Big Brother-ispovjedaonica za udbaše, mafijaše i mutne tipove. Stanković se inače iživljava na katolicima i Hrvatima, ali se prema Stipinim lažima postavio vrlo benevolentno. Još je samo falilo da dođe Mima i zasvira na gitari pa da ljubav bude potpuna i da utroje otpjevaju neku pacifističku. Jedna minuta razgovora o kućama i čekovima, par minuta o Patriji, i pola sata o Karamarku. Stara je to taktika kominterne: prebaci sve na ideološkog neprijatelja. Kad Karamarko udbi toliko smeta, onda jednostavno ne može biti onoliko loš koliko ga mediji predstavljaju.
Karamarko o transkriptima
Cijela nacija već se danima pita tko je dostavio ozloglašene transkripte s Brijuna u Haag, Stjepan Mesić rješava tu dvojbu, to ste biti vi, g. Karamarko?
– Karamarko: “To su lažne konstrukcije. Mesić iznosi dvije notorne neistine. Da Brijunski transkript nije korišten kao dokaz u Haagu. On spominje da je to audiozapis, no on je pronađen tek 2005. Brijunski je transkript i te kako upotrijebljen kao dokaz, bez audiozapisa i to u postupku protiv Slobodana Miloševića. To je dokument C-11 od 26. lipnja 2003. Dokument je od Tužiteljstva zatražio odvjetnik S. Miloševića g. Tapušković.
Dakle, ako je taj dokument prvi put upotrijebljen u lipnju 2003., vjerojatno je da je on u Haagu bio još i ranije. Vidi se i iz teksta presude generalu Anti Gotovini da se i tu transkript koristio kao dokaz.
Jedini kontakt POA-e s tim dokumentom dogodio se u proljeće 2005., nakon što je obrana A. Gotovine izrazila sumnju da se radi o krivotvorini te je podnijela DORH-u kaznenu prijavu protiv NN počinitelja da je krivotvorio transkripte. Tada POA dobiva zadatak da pokuša utvrditi vjerodostojnost transkripata.Što je POA zaključila na temelju činjenice da niste pronašli originalne fonograme nego presnimljene?
– To je, sigurno, zanimljiva okolnost, no mi tu nismo mogli donositi sud o tome što se dogodilo s originalnom matricom snimke, no indikativno jest da su tekstovi transkripata izvučeni s audiokazeta, ne s originala.
Razgovarao sam sa stručnjacima koji su mi potvrdili da je snimka montirana?
– Jako mi je teško sada o tome govoriti, vezan sam čuvanjem državne tajne, a još važnije, žalbeni postupak na presudu generalima još je u tijeku. Međutim, predlagao sam predsjedniku da transkripte predsjednika Tuđmana prebaci u Državni arhiv RH, da se zatvore, na njih stavi oznaka državne tajne i zapečati ih se na 10, 20 ili 30 godina.
Postoji li i jedna država na svijetu gdje se možete vaditi da ste ukrali ček namijenjen bolnici usred ratne zone (!), ali ga niste unovčili pa niste ništa krivi?! Naravno, laž je i da je taj ček izgubljen, on je uredno položen u banku umjesto da je poslan u bolnicu u Gospić. A zašto nije unovčeni, da se lako pretpostaviti. Neki ljudi i neke vrste životinja nanjuše opasnost.
Ono što fascinira je Mesićev ultimativni bezobrazluk. Mesić juče nevjerojatnom lakoćom odvraća komentatoru Gjeneru, koji ga je pozvao da nevinost dokaže pred sudom, “da se nevinost ne dokazuje na sudu” – što je točno, ali je upravo legalist Mesić autor izjave da general Gotovina “mora svoju nevinost dokazati pred sudom”. Kad već spominjemo Gotovinu, njega je Mesić smijenio zbog potpisa na jednom posve benevolentnom pismu u kom se tražilo da se prestane s difamacijom hrvatskih branitelja kao bande kriminalaca. To pismo je proglasio “pokušajem puča”. Smjenu generala pravdao time da se oni nemaju što pačati u politiku, a istovremeno je jedan od generala potpisnika tog “pučističkog” pisma, Ante Kotromanović, postao ministar obrane uz Mesićev blagoslov.
No vrhunac bezobrazluka je u tome što je upravo Stipe taj koji je sred rata, 1994., pokušao izvesti državni udar. Ono što nije uspio tada, ostvario je 2000. godine. Kako nam se uopće dogodio Stipe Mesić, besprizorni lažov i korupcionaš na čelu države?
Tajna njegovog naglog uspjeha, kad je u manje od mjesec dana dospio s posljednjeg na prvo mjesto popularnosti, i nije neka tajna. To ne možete ostvariti bez vrhunskih stručnjaka za politički marketing, profesionalnih spin doktora, ogromnih financijskih sredstava, ali i podrške određenih centara moći koji će sustavno minirati vaše protivnike i ujedno vam otvarati prostor. I osigurati malo prije spomenuta sredstva. “Klariko voće” je platilo kampanju? Stvarno vjerujete u to?
Atmosfera pred izbore je bila u najmanju ruku odvratna. Svakodnevno se govorilo o milijunima maraka koji se šalju “rvat’nama” u BiH, Hercegovcima. Za siromaštvo u Hrvatskoj su optuživani Hercegovci. Gore nego što se po Zagrebu govorilo – također u sklopu udbinog programa “posvađajmo Hrvate pa vladajmo” o “tovarima” osamdesetih. Berlin 1933., samo stavite Židove umjesto Hercegovaca. Imaju sve biznise, iskorištavaju nas, kapitalisti. Na malograđanštinu su uvijek mogli računati.
Svaka sličnost s nevjerojatno prljavom kampanjom protiv Bandića u korist Josipovića, naravno, nije slučajna: uostalom, ista mreža, ista oligarhija, koja je na vlast dovela Josipovića je dovela i Mesića, uz potporu istog veleposlanstva, uostalom.
Tom se veleposlanstvu Stipe odužio tako što je nakon izbora ugostio u predsjedničkom uredu britanskog agenta Johna Cooksona i stavio mu na uvid transkripte i audiozapise označene kao državna tajna. S tim je materijalima britanski “novinar” za Channel 4 napravio emisiju koja je školski primjer povijesnog revizionizma. Predsjednik Mesić je dakle, državnu tajnu predao stranoj obavještajno službi, što je kažnjivo po čl.146. st.1. Kaznenog zakona.
Zanimljivo je i s kolikim je elanom potom Mesić prionuo na progon svih ratnih zločina iz domovinskog rata, na radost “prijatelja” Hrvatske od Beograda do Londona. Nedavno je CIA objavila, prije vremena, svoje dokumente iz kojih se jasno vidi da je optužio Hrvatsku za etničko čišćenje u Zapadnoj Slavoniji. Srećom da Amerika na to ipak nije nasjela. Dobro, ne baš svih zločina. I ovdje se postupalo strogo selektivno. Šteta što je ekipa Ekrema Mandala najvećim dijelom likvidirana, oni bi zacijelo svašta imali za reći o njegovim vezama s “Handžar divizijom” i o “antifašizmu” koji su sprovodili po Mošćenici, i po prigradskim Sisačkim naseljima. Ekrem Mandal, sandžaklija iz Labina, vodio je početkom devedesetih tzv. “Handžar diviziju”, paravojnu skupinu – zapravo bandu lopova i ubojica – koja se bavila likvidacijama i pljačkom imućnijih Srba u Sisku. Na taj način je stradalo, prema dostupnim podacima, preko 600 ljudi. Preživjeli članovi jedinice su prije rata bili fukara: nakon njega, bili su bogataši. Baš kao i Stipe, koji je obećao prodati Brijune, avion, Mercedese… da bi nakon izbora zaboravio na sva predizborna obećanja.
Nakon svega toga, mi i dalje slušamo iste laži. Finski ustašoidi ponovo atakiraju na tekovine antifašizma, harangiraju s desnih pozicija kako Stipe Mesić svojim jasno izraženim antifašističkim stavovima ne bi mogao utjecati na slijedeće izbore. Sve je to ujdurma obavještajnog podzemlja, u suradnji s Jukka Rappeom, finskim Mladenom Bajićem. Da nije žalosno, bilo bi komično slušati predsjednika koji suočen s optužbama za uzimanje mita po stoti put lupeta o tome kako to nije istina jer je on antifašista. Takvom svojom obranom – pozivanjem na NDH i proglašavanjem finskog državnog tužitelja ustašom – on zapravo implicite priznaje da je primio mito. Slična je to retorika onoj kojom se služio Sanader, govoreći kako ga optužuju “neprijatelji Hrvatske”, što je zapravo floskula kojoj se pribjegava kad se nije moguće argumentirano braniti. Ima neke političke simbolike u tome što završni udarac antifašizmu Stipe Mesića dolazi upravo iz Finske, za koju naš premijer smatra da za razliku od Hrvatske “nikad nije imala građanski rat” (osim što je to pogrešno, pogrešno je i da ga je Hrvatska imala, no to dosta govori o tome što premijer zapravo misli o naciji kojoj je na čelu, a govori dosta i o njegovom razumijevanju koji su uopće bili ciljevi rata). Naime,1939. godine kad je antifašistički Staljinov SSSR napao Finsku kako bi je okupirao, to je opravdavao razlozima borbe protiv finskog imperijalizma i fašizma.
Bivši načelnik Kontraobavještajne službe Jugoslavije general Aleksandar Vasiljević u jednom intervjuu i svojem svjedočenju pred Haškim sudom u veljači 2003. godine, predsjednika Mesića označio kao suradnika KOS-a Jugoslavije i to u vrijeme kada se je Mesić nalazio na najvišim dužnostima u ime HDZ-a, nakon 1990. godine.
Vasiljević je u svojstvu svjedoka, pred sada pokojnim sucem Richardom Mayem, na procesu Slobodanu Miloševiću izjavio slijedeće:
“Kasnije smo ipak uspeli da uspostavimo odnos sa Mesićem kojeg smo čak jednim delom pridobili za ideju saradnje sa Armijom. Sa Mesićem sam kao glavni čovek KOS-a imao dvadesetak sastanaka na kojima smo razmenili informacije i podatke jer smo mislili da možemo da sprečimo sukobe i ekstremizam. Mnogo smo upravo od Mesića doznali o ustrojavanju paravojnih jedinica u Hrvatskoj, naoružavanju HDZ-ovaca. Mesić nam je poslužio kao HDZ-ovski insajder i informator. Mnogo su nam koristile tih dana informacije i podaci koje sam dobijao od Mesića. U jednom našem razgovoru Mesić je rekao kako bi tolerisao hapšenja svih funkcionara MUP-a i obrane iz Hrvatske osim Špegelja i Boljkovca. Inzistirao je na njihovoj zaštiti. Složili smo se oko toga. Razmena informacija i podataka s Mesićem ipak nam je bila mnogo važnija i nismo hteli da ugrozimo te kanale. Mesić je dao u tajnosti zeleno svetlo za akciju Štit i hapšenja.
Ali zašto mi kao nacija uopće pristajemo na te laži? Što se čeka s optužnicom? Da EU to zatraži? Ili da Bajić doživi prosvijetljenje, epifaniju? Bajić je podigao Europski uhidbeni nalog i Interpolovu tjeralicu protiv Hernadija radi mita, gdje je pritvor za Mesića? Ako Bajiću nije poznato da je ček gotovina, onda je diletant koji ne poznaje zakon pa ne može biti javni tužitelj. Ako jest, a pravi se blesav, onda je korumpiran što je još gore.
Pristajući da prave idiote od nas, s vremenom i postajemo idioti. Ali pasivnošću, postajemo suodgovorni za kulturu laži i prijevare koja je u korijenu svega onog negativnog što razara ovu zemlju, i što razara šanse i idućih generacija da budu poštovane, uspješne, da se na njih ne gleda kao na prljave Balkance koji žive u lažima i od laži, već kao na građane civilizirane države. Pristajanjem uz (anti)fašističku larmu i harangu protiv ovih ili onih dežurnih krivaca za ovo ili ono, postajemo dio fašističkog društva, ma čime mi sebe opravdavali. Stipe Mesić nije slučajno dva puta biran za predsjednika republike. Pogriješiti jednom je ljudski – priznajem, 2000. sam i sam pogriješio, nisam tada pratio politiku i nisam znao pravilno procijeniti što se i zašto događa. Malo tko je mogao: naciji bez iskustva s demokracijom svatko je mogao podvaliti za male pare. Međutim, ustrajati u neznanju je jednostavno neprihvatljivo.
Pa koliko god se nama gadilo sve ono što radi Stipe Mesić, i koliko god da smo sigurni da nikad ne bismo mogli postupati tako nemoralno i lagati tako hladnokrvno i bešćutno kao on, pokušajmo zamisliti u što bismo se sami pretvorili kad se na nas ne bi odnosila pravila i zakoni. Ne trebamo to zamisliti da bismo pravdali Mesića, ili da bismo prema njemu pokazivali bilo kakvo razumijevanje, nego da bi se pobudila savjest svih nas, koji smo svojom ignorancijom i indolencijom Mesiću omogućili da postane to što je postao, koji smo omogućili društvenom neodgovornošću stvaranje jedne takve kriminalne hobotnice, koji smo mafiji dali državu u ruke. No, mase će uvijek reagirati predvidivo. Umjesto da ljudi sami priznaju odgovornost, oni će, zatreba li to, radije linčovati dojučerašnjega idola. Zato će nam se Mesići događati dok god sami ne postanemo, kao pojedinci pa i društvo, pošteniji, iskreniji, i manje spremni tolerirati laži i obmane u nadi da ćemo se i sami nekako okoristiti u toj mutnoj vodi.
it’ll take me a bit of time to translate all these documented lies uttered by Mesic, therealamericro – but well worth it. Those readers who aren’t versed in the Croatian language can rest assured there were many and all disturbing lies particularly as they affect the citizens and public.
People/politicians say what they think others want to hear only when they have their own personal agenda at stake, Didi. And Mesic’s agenda included lining his own pockets by what I have read in relation to his overseas travels in early nineties. I remember reading once he said that the cash he received was payment for his talks in diaspora BUT that would not be true because while on these travels he was in receipt of his salary from Croatia and other travel expenses… Ina might know more about that because I remember reading about that in Croatian newspapers during the years of Mesic’s presidency… ah, let all the truths and all the lies from Mesic come to light!
Ah Rozic, I do know quite a bit and have stashed away quite a library of evidence but such matters are not appropriate to fully give away on this Blog at this stage
Hahahaha, this is brilliant! Mesic saying that his beloved Tito is in Hell! Hahahaha! Thanks for finding and sharing that Youtube video.
Tito is preparing a place for Mesic in Hell!
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on – Winston Churchill. I bet Mesic knew this when he embarked on lies about Tudjman from about mid-1990’s. I’m ashamed to call myself a Croat because of Mesic, but thank God for Tudjman
What has happened to the money from “CROATIAN FUND’
Don’t know of any “CROATIAN FUND” Amir, you tell us.
You gave an interview where you claim some of the monies is missing from ‘CROATIAN NATIONAL FUND;further more you even said that it was open in the name of Skegro,Tudman and Susak and in that interview you did not mention Mesic,So if you use common sencse you will come to the conclusion that only 3 above mentioned people had a chance to misuse it.
Ah Amir you crazy Tudjman hating fool! You mean the “Croatian National Fund” (as far as I know there was no account open in the name of Skegro, Susak and Tudjman – that’s your wild fantasy talking) that was held in Villach Austria. Well I gave several interviews about that starting from early over the years starting from January 2000 in Jutarnji List.Some interviews were about me (and others from diaspora) who pursued the destiny of the USD 11.8 Million that was in Westminster Bank, London, transferred there from Villach during early 1990’s for the purposes of deposit for a bank guarantee Croatia needed for a USD500 Million international loan and the funds were due to be released then to Republic of Croatia and the law firm Allen Allen and Hemsley were to be paid out of that their due fee for administering the bank guarantee or those funds. Tudjman died in December 1999 and I and other contributors to that fund wanted to be assured that the funds really did come to Croatia. We never got the assurance, neither did the Croatia public, Mesic would know best why. Tudjman was never a signatory to that fund, by the way. Mesic though has yet to answer what happened to the USD 50,000 cheque + that were written in that fund’s name, given to him in 1992 to deposit in the bank but it never was. Later he spun a story that he forgot about the cheque and after one year he found the cheque in his pocket and gave it to Zarko Domljan to be used for restoration of the bombed Banski dvori!!! My question was/is who and how could cash a cheque written in the name of the Fund and marked “Not Negotiable” without that money going through the actual bank account. This was 1990’s and such misappropriation was possible. Furthermore, only a disrespectful person to say the least could have taken that money and used it for purposes other than what it was donated for – and that was Mesic. The other interviews that come to mind had to do with USD2.6 Million that was transferred from Villach to Privredna Banka Zagreb that was left unused when the war ended to be used for funding the needs of a school of democracy Tudjman had planned to open for Croatian youth, Ivic Pasalic was the president of that fund and Ivica Racan as Prime Minister took issue with that and forced the closure of that fund and that money was as media reported to be paid into the Croatian state budget! I don’t know if it actually was, I never received assurances even though I had every right to them as donor into the fund. I took issue with that because that money was donated for the purpose it was set up for and nobody could change the purpose for the use of those donated funds without advising and seeking permission from donors; but that is how things happen in democracy and Social Democrats weren’t about to respect such considerations. I often wonder why Mesic started to spin stories about bags of money being brought into Croatia and misused and never giving details but always pointing a finger at Tudjman, he even went so far as to say that he came to Australia to stop this practice when in truth money was never sent in bags, it was always deposited into the Commonwealth Bank, and transferred via cheque to Villach – but hey, we know Mesic likes to spin stories to divert attention from him … There’s quite a bit of documentation and bank statements still existing for this. So far I have only managed to discover the fact that Mesic was the only one who misused the funds (Domljan’s brief statement in Slobodna Dalmacija some three years ago doesn’t quite gel, so one is justified in suspecting that Mesic never gave him the cheque etc). There will be more on this issue as it will not go away but Tudjman is cleared of any misuse, he did not use any for private purposes and as far as “feed and defend Croatia” purpose of the fund he had the full trust from the diaspora to use his judgment as to the use of the money for the benefit of all Croatian official needs at the time of war, whether his delegates like Mesic at the time delved into murky waters that is the main question but he himself is not to blame for what others did behind closed doors and under bank counters. From my well researched information money was well spent while Tudjman was alive, except of course for a few cases of suspect dealings by individuals (such as Mesic) that actually we in the diaspora discovered through our banks that held the accounts from which cheques were drawn etc
Amir Pilipovic – I have spent hours researching interviews etc with Ina about the Croatian National Fund, about the funds still missing given to Mesic to take over into the bank account and after numerous articles read I could not find where Ina said that the account was opened in Skegro, Susak and Tudjman’s name – everywhere I look I only find Croatian National Fund name for the account. Can you enlighten us by providing a link to the interview you write about or where it was published and when please? Otherwise I’m getting quite annoyed with your comments that have no rhyme nor reason except in attempts to trash Tudjman, unjustly I might add! I think you will find that you are very wrong and hence not give the details of your source where Ina (not anyone else) said what you say she said. To my knowledge she has always been correct in this matter and has been doing much on behalf of self and other donors even to her own personal risk at times, for you would not believe what the “Mesic camp of supporters” used to do to try and avoid coming clean about the missing funds in Mesic’s pockets. Ina was the first person in Australian diaspora that went head on against fund abuses/ or Cro government money being expended inappropriately by ambassador Neven Jurica in early 1990’s – it took about 16 years for things to click and Jurica (Mesic’s mate) ending up behind bars for similar things. Ina is a champion of truth and courage in my book.
I’ll bud in Zarko. Thank you on your feedback regarding my activities. As to the name of the bank account I certainly never said it was opened in Skegro, Susak and Tudjman’s name because it was not. It was opened in the name of Croatian National Fund (German language variation as it was in Austria/ at the times when such an account was simply not safe while Yugoslavia was still existing and reasons for that are obvious). I too would like to know what Amir is talking about.
When you google Ina Vukic you will have to read and than go to next page,besides as you can see i can’t provide you a link since Ina is deleting all or some comments of mine,THE Fund is just a name,but there had to be authorized person/s to use IT ,to use the money,take it out,transfer it etc,etc,Hrvoje Sarinic,Franjo Tudman and Gojko Susak were authorized people to handle CROATIAN NATIONAL FUND.
Amir – just for the record: you never provide links, nor specific source, you always ask the readers to go and look for information by themselves and that usually means a lot of material etc which is really not fair. The comments that have been deleted do not contain any links but are full of inappropriate views you have that are offensive, insulting or defamatory. As I said before to you on this blog, if you want to pursue those lines you start your own blog. The matter here is that you insisted the fund was opened in Tudjman + names and it was NOT. As far as authorised persons to use the fund Tudjman WAS NEVER a signatory but yes he was the one who was trusted with decisions as to how the funds were used, others operated the funds accordingly but as it happened, some may have abused it – Mesic is one that we definitely know of because the cheques we sent for the Fund via him were not even made known to Tudjman and one was found to sit in Zagreb bank (not Villach) long enough for it to be cashed by someone else (not the Fund reps) after a year elapsed (the rules of the banking there at the time were reported to have been that if a cheque was not claimed within a year then other persons could cash it !!! In one case of $30,000 this was traced after months of search for it with the help of a friend in the police detectives, cheque was cancelled swiftly and a new one drawn and set directly to the hospital it was meant for instead of sending it via anybody…). While you have little clue about how the funds were used you have a lot to say about it – incorrect of course. Hence, deletion of your comments from time to time. Tudjman was authorised to decide how to best use OUR money and that is our business not yours but when you encounter the fact that Mesic did what he pleased with our dedicated money you do not like it. Mesic was never authorised to decide how OUR money is to be used and yet he did and to make things worse in most cases things are not clear bar the one where we managed to salvage the $30 000.
ZARKO,Ina Vukic has given an interview to Slobodna Dalmacija on 2/1/2000.The article was written by Marija Brnic and Bisera Lucic,You can google Slobodna Dalmacija 1 and it will take you right to the link,Read and see who is wrong.And than tell me how Mesic was able to steal from it,or haw was he able to cash a note made payable to the fund,Things don’t add up my friend.
Amir there are more recent interviews than 2000 (of course in the meantime our investigation team has discovered how it was possible for a third party to cash a cheque in Croatia in those days – don’t fret, it’ll all come to light, patience is needed when you have to deal with Mesic & Co. whose wings are spread in a lot of places…) – as to Slobodna Dalmacija, I have issues with that one which seems to protect Mesic… around that time I sent them other stuff too about Mesic but they did not publish it, never mind others did, as we now know – and there is much more. Here are some more recent interviews with me on the issue:http://www.vecernji.hr/vijesti/gdje-je-150-000-dolara-australskih-iseljenika-darovanih-hrvatskoj-clanak-347946
http://www.hkv.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/9690-ina-vuki-mesi-je-ek-stavio-u-dep-ali-tajne-fondove-nije-razotkrio.html
http://www.hrsvijet.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18353:ina-vuki-qpotenjainaq-mesi-qmaznuoq-dolare-australskih-hrvata-namijenjene-obrani-hrvatske-video&catid=1:politika&Itemid=9
http://www.hrt.hr/index.php?id=vijesti-clanak&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=140088&cHash=cd64e771be
http://amac.hrvati-amac.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=757
That’s enough for now. And he/she who works hard leaves trails of evidence behind, that is why if you google my name you will come across thousands upon thousands of references and imagine – all that work in my spare time and for love of Croatia and truth. Eat your heart out – your vitriolic comments will not deter me and hopefully will not deter others.
Amir Pilipovic – you simply do not ask people to go and read reams to check on a sentence or two or three you write in the comment, you actually point the reader with a link, or book page etc where the reader can check. That is the standard of behavior and if your comments get deleted then one can bet they were defamatory – read the terms of use or commenting on this blog. As to Mesic and his suspect dealings with money from diaspora here is a video for you to look at and think about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FESsSN_f0uM
Interesting that he said Tudjman’s son could sue him and then when Tudjman’s son filed a lawsuit against Mesic for defamation etc, Mesic changed his mind and decided to hide behind immunity. Mesic is the one who started stories about Tudjman’s family taking money and yet it was Mesic who took them! I suspect you don’t like this truth – tough luck, it’ll get hotter for Mesic, we pray.
Thank you Zarko – obviously our “friend” Amir is confused about the difference between authorised people to operate an account and the name of the account. Plus I think he doesn’t like the fact that Mesic is quite deeply implicated in suspect operations with cheques given to him to take to Croatia and which were written in the names of others.
Haven’t Serbs and Croatians been sworn enemies since the beginning of time? My coworker is part Serbian and he has true hatred for Croatians… The funny thing is he was born and raised in The U.S
No they have not omtatjun. I personally do not have time for people who hate a whole nation of people, who generalise. Every nationality has its good and bad people to say simply. The issue here was that Croatians wanted to secede from communist Yugoslavia and be independent and create democracy but the Serbs did not want that and aggression from Serb-led Yugoslav army and Croatian Serb rebels against Croats started. It is quite sad to hear that someone born abroad like your Serb coworker harbours hatred for Croats – that is truly sad and unfortunate, but what can one do there – nothing, really, people will be people and there are all sorts that’s why it’s important to stick with facts.
Yes.. I don’t get it myself. He says the Croatians won’t let his family occupy their house in some strip of land.. Such is life.. I like your blog by the way. I’m into history.. He also says that his people were put in some horrible concentration camp run by an equally sadistic commander. On one of the many cable channels here, they did this expose on a Croatian war criminal who saw to the death of many Serbs… I believe the television series was called, “Nazi Collaborators”.
Well omtatatjun there were individuals who committed crimes on Croatian side but crime was not the Croatian politics of war but defence, while Serb led aggression was entirely different and many Serbs seem to forget of their murders, concentration camps, rapes, ethnic cleansing before Croatia organised its defence proper. And yes there were Nazi Collaborators in both Croatia and Serbia during WWII and I hope all of them get their justice, if they’re dead then posthumously. Thanks for your feedback.
omtatatjun:
I suggest you read Croatia: A Nation Forged in War, Serbia’s Secret War, for starters.
WWII was quite complicated, especially for Croats (who voted over 90 percent Croatian Peasant Party – HSS before the war – HSS was a center-left party and despised by Pavelic and Tito alike, and both banned the party when they ruled) as Croats were given two bad choices – follow the Italian-installed Ante Pavelic who had no clue about even basic tactics, let alone long-term strategy, whose politically / morally suicidal revenge polices for Serb crimes and state terrorism of 1918-1941 and the systematic, massive war crimes, massacres and scorched (Croatian and Muslim) village polices of the retreating colonialist-occupation Serbian Army and Chetnik bandits fleeing any engagements with the German invaders in April 1941 – or the Communist revolution under the Communist primitive Tito.
Not much in terms of choices. Unfortunately the allies left Croats high and dry and never offered them an independent state at any point, so, Croats, occupied for over 900 years and victims of the genocidal Chetnik “Homogeneous Serbia” plan, usually chose their sides by who gave them arms first to defend themselves from the savage, bloodthirsty Chetnik hordes.
WWII had a (false) master narrative created by the Yugoslav Communist regime in which war crimes against Croats, who were against any Yugoslavia en mass, were repressed and the Pavelic regime’s crimes inflated up to 10 fold, with the sole purpose of trying to tie any potential Croatian state to criminality and war crimes (despite both Yugoslavia’s being built on massacres of Croats and held together by state terrorism against citizens at home and abroad).
The (false) master narrative was repeated ad infinitum, a deliberate aberrant conditioning of the Serbian population, and it has since become a part of Serbian national consciousness, which, since the 1844 greater Serbia outline by Ilja Garasanin, Serbia’s then Interior Minister, has been trapped in a collective imperialist, expansionist mania, and with Milosevic’s media conditioning, Serbs’ in Serbia, B&H, Croatia and in the West caught in an irrational expansionist-ultranationalist genocidal mania (evidenced by continued open justifications of the Srebrenica genocide by Serb intellectuals, media and politicians alike).
Wow, Thank you for the information. They showed recently this episode of Nazi Collaborator on The Military Channel and Pavelic was even shunned by The German SS for his brutality. That alone seem bad. I had no idea how complex it was over there. My co-worker who has no accent nor can speak the language and never has been over to that area in his life. Has complete and total hate for Croats. I even said to him, “Rob.. Take it easy.” He replies, “No Juan, They are ..(DELETED).. blah blah blah.” It seems in breed almost. Thanks again for your wisdom.
DELETED DUE TO LACK OF CORROBORATING EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE COMMENT OFFERED IN WHICH STATEMENT DIFFERS FROM KNOWN FACTS
Zarko Domljan “Mesic mi je predao cek ,ali se zlatnine nesjecam” You are familiar with the statement since you have replied to it and yet no mention of it here,Also if Mesic didn’t fool you why in hell is internet full of your interviews about the CEK and Mesic.All you do is trashing a guy and even said ‘I will not visit Croatia nor help it in any way while Mesic is president’ and DELETED AS INAPPROPRIATE.And yet you can’t come to the conclusion that all of them are the same.
Sorry Amir but as you probably know justice is very very slow especially in Croatia where the political elite have had quite a pull. I have done my bit in reporting the stuff both in media and to channels of appropriate authority and I will not engage in further discussions about the matter unless the wait becomes utterly unjustified.
Who are you exactly talking about when you say Nazi Collaborators? Now that is a generalization is it not? You would like to bring all those who were collaborators of the Nazis to justice?- even the dead, posthumously! Well, I guess you and Tito and his Partisans/Communist cronies have a lot in common then because Tito meted out his own brand of justice to those he deemed as being “Nazi collaborators” immediately after the war! Bleiburg and the Death Marches where not only Ustase, Domobrani but also civilians were murdered in the hundreds of thousands! Yes, Tito the great antifascist! Except there were no fascists or fascist organizations in Croatia,( as there were in Germany and Italy) during the war.Those he killed, he killed because they were Croatian nationalists who had the audacity to establish a sovereign Croatian state – NDH. Whether you agree or disagree, one point is undisputable – NDH was an attempt to reclaim our nationhood as Croatians -not as Yugoslavs! The merits or demerits of NDH can and should be the topic for other further discussions.
Do you not see the tragic irony? Croatians were persecuted/imprisoned/killed because they were “fascists” under Communism and here we are today with a new democratic Croatia and those same Croatians are still being labelled and marginalized today? If as you say, Tudjman was the great leveller and he reconciled the left with the right – then he knowingly did so only for the short term and only for purposes of presenting a united front during the war. I contend that if he was true to the idea of reconciliation then his actions would have been more equitable and decisive. For example, why does the Croatian Constitution, as one of it’s foundational points recognize Tito’s Yugoslavia as a building block of today’s Croatia and explicitly omit NDH? Why is Tito still revered with a Zagreb square named in his honor? Why are former Partisans still collecting pensions for war time service? It goes on and on. And still today, someone is actually calling for justice to be done on behalf of whom against “Nazi collaborators” on behalf of the antifascists? What were the grievous injustices done to the “antifascists”?(Whom, by the way still have their “Dan Antifascisticke Borbe” even today). Anyone see any reconciliation here?
Velebit, I’m particularly interested in Serbia’s Nazi-collaborators i.e. individuals who have escaped through political support no doubt any prosecution, and of course others if they exist. A crime is a crime no matter who perpetrated it. Hence, I’m also for prosecution and condemnation of communist crimes in Tito’s Yogoslavia. Keep it fair please, no need to compare anyone to anyone when the discussion is about actual crimes, facts – otherwise you are not better than today’s Croatian so called antifascists who keep on justifying communist crimes as a “necessity”.
Velebit:
It would be political suicide today, let alone in 1990 / 1991, to include NDH into Croatia’s Constitution. That would have been and would remain a media / political / diplomatic coup for greater Serbian, greater Bosniak, anti-Croatian interests.
That should be clear to anyone and everyone.
The time is ripe to remove SRH from Croatia’s Constitution. It was a necessary evil for political-diplomatic and border recognition issues in 1990/1991 to include it but it needs to be expunged, and Partisan pensions all audited (there is no reason why anyone over the age of 21, whose parents were killed as Partisans, to have EVER collected their parent(s) pensions after they became adults, which 40,000 65+’ers still do).
Removing SRH from Croatia’s Constitution would be akin to denying the Croatian peoples Pro-Allied role during WW2 in liberating their country (Croatia) from the Nazi & Fascist occupiers & their pro Nazi Ustasha partners. Technically Croatia during WW2 was neither Neutral or willingly Axis in nature. Croatia was only Axis by default due to Nazi military occupation that illegally established the WW2 nazi puppet state of Croatia (“1941-1945”), so called “independent state of croatia” (n.d.h.), nominally ruled by the Nazi sponsored Ustasha regime. Croatia’s post democratic constitution of 1990 is a direct continuation of Croatia’s earliest anti Nazi/Fascist constitution of 1943/1944
Well Stipe, there is that but there is also the fact that children of both sides fought for and defended today’s Croatia from Serb aggression in 1990’s and WWII has nothing to do with it except that WWII communists did not want a free Croatia but for it stay within Yugoslavia created by WWII circumstances of which you speak.
Thanks for the kind words and encouragement today. I am happy to say my issue is fixed! 🙂
Great to know Opinionated Man 😀
For the record ,You keep deleting my comments,the ones that support me or what i claim,write here,You do all of it because you know i am telling the truth which makes you not..HOW ABOUT YOU LET READERS JUDGE MY COMMENTS AND CHECK THEM OUT.
Amir – the deleted comments or moderated ones are far from the truth, they may be your truth or your opinion but not the documented one – you do not provide specific or clear reference and they are defamatory or could be construed as such. So, if you want the readers to judge your comments (I have stored them away safely) you are required to provide your contact details, your identity etc because what you say is your opinion and I will not publish a possibly defamatory opinion from someone who is, for the purposes of checking, anonymous. As I said before, you publish your own blog or something similar and carry the responsibility for your own words yourself. I have too much respect for proper procedure to let your rants through.
I don’t call people names ,which is the most important part to me,Now everybody has a right to an opinion except here DELETED
Well Amir, I don’t think you can complain about your comments or opinions being shut out of here – why, they’re everywhere almost, less the ones deleted of course. As I said or suggested before – everyone has the right to an opinion and to express it. But opinions are not facts, they can be neither right nor wrong – they are just opinions. Now, when one provides actual independent sources of facts upon which one bases his/her opinion then the reader can either agree or disagree with the opinion, formulate their own etc. Opinions though that tend to contain defamatory material against an individual person, without providing irrefutable evidence of support that is of public interest, then the person who expresses that opinion also could be construed as promoting defamatory innuendo and must stand behind what he/she says. You are anonymous as far as your comments go on this blog and so are others, and that is fine, trolling is quite common these days but website owners, blog owners also have the right to moderate or delete anything from trolling that compromises their integrity. And your comments, particularly the deleted ones are nothing more than trolling – and I will not tolerate that. So, I say it for the nth time: read and respect the Terms and Conditions clearly set out on every page of this Blog and comments won’t be moderated or deleted. You claim you know a lot about the war, that may be so, but so do others.
Thank you for LIKE
( http://aliosapopovici.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/ )
http://youtu.be/hebqjhu94v8
Aliosa.
You’re welcome Aliosa. Cheers
Everything is very open with a precise description of the challenges.
It was truly informative. Your website is extremely helpful.
Thanks for sharing!
Thank you Saznaje kako izgubiti kilograme – perhaps Croatia can lose Mesic in your weight loss programs, lots of trimming of useless politicians needed there 😀