Ognjen Kraus, front left,
head of Croatian Jewish Councils Coordination
at Jasenovac 15 April 2016
Separate commemoration of victims of Holocaust
Photo: Nikola Cutuk/Pixsell
Some 300 Croatian Jews from Croatian Jewish Councils have held their own Holocaust commemoration at the WWII Jasenovac camp site Friday 15 April, a week ahead of the official commemorative ceremony, in protest at what they say is government inaction in the face of what they maliciously insist is surging neo-Ustashi (pro-Nazi) sentiment in the country. They refer to, among other individual incidents, some “pro-Ustashi” chants at soccer games no government without taking away freedom of speech and bringing the army can control (!). The ceremony at Jasenovac was attended also by representatives from a handful foreign embassies in Croatia, by Croatian members of parliament representing the Italian (Furio Radin) and Serbian minorities (Milorad Pupovac) in Croatia, the ex-president communist die-hard Ivo Josipovec, some handful of other so-called antifascists in Croatia whose sole role in society seems to be negating and covering up communist crimes, which by the way were larger in numbers of victims than the Holocaust.
“We have commemorated the victims of Jasenovac but also all the Jews who had perished in NDH (WWII Independent State of Croatia) under the then race laws. We came here because there is a presence in Croatia of a revitalisation of the WWII Ustashi movement and a complete negation, regardless of some statements made after we announced our intentions not to participate in the official ceremony at Jasenovac,” Jewish association leader in Croatia, Ognjen Kraus, said, accusing the First Deputy Prime Minister, leader of the Croatian Democratic Union/HDZ, Tomislav Karamarko, of never having set foot on the Jasenovac Holocaust memorial site.
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarovic
President of Croatia
The “statements made” Kraus refers to here include the statement made by Kolinda Grabar Kitarovic, president of Croatia, concerned about the divisions with regards to commemorating the Holocaust victims in Jasenovac, said 11 April 2016 that “NDH (WWII Independent State of Croatia led by the Ustashe forces) was the least independent and it protected the interests of the Croatian people the least, and that the Ustashi regime was a criminal regime. Anti-fascism is in the foundations of the Croatian Constitution, and modern Croatia has grown from the foundations of the Homeland War.”
Croatian Constitution may be based on anti-fascism but certainly not on communism and given that Croatia’s communists who arise from Yugoslav communists call themselves antifascist even if they were nothing like anti-fascists but thugs and criminals, President Grabar-Kitarovic made a serious error here in missing this opportunity to make that distinction and calling the communist/Partisan WWII opposition to Ustashas also a criminal regime, then. For that is what they had proven to be and today’s leaders of Croatia must acknowledge that, no matter what the pain and what the political cost to them personally.
The truth is that while there were killings committed by both sides in WWII, the Ustashas goal was an independent Croatia and the Partisans’ one was communist Yugoslavia – no independence for any of the states forced previously into the Serb-led oppressive Kingdom of Yugoslavia and the president and all would do well to remember that especially when relating to the 1990’s Homeland War behind which is the thousand-year of Croat plight for independence.
A pot cannot call the kettle black and get away with it. People at large are neither blind nor stupid. If President Grabar-Kitarovic was intending to settle the political spirits causing upsetting divisions around the Holocaust victims commemorations then her statements needed to cover fairness to all victims of WWII and post-WWII not just one side. She did disappoint quite a lot of people this time and demonstrated that her advisors may have absolutely no skills in political conflict resolution, which Croatia needs to rid itself of remnants of the criminal communist regime.
That is what today’s Croatia, today’s world – require and demand. Throwing sand into the eyes was a thing that may have worked in the past – not today, not in a world of democracy where everyone’s rights are equal and knowledge-base and courage of “ordinary” citizens are much larger than decades before.
Zlatko Hasanbegovic
Minister for Culture, Croatia
Photo: zagorje.com/ Kruno Pavlina
Whilst attending a cultural event in Krapina, Zagorje region outside capital Zagreb, Croatia’s minister for culture, Zlatko Hasanbegovic, responded to Kraus’ statements that Tomislav Karamarko had never been in Jasenovac and to his organisation of a separate commemoration in Jasenovac:
“I regret that we are placed in situations where such statements can be heard, especially at the time leading up commemorations when we pay respects to the innocent. Whoever heard what Tomislav Karamarko was saying, can conclude that those (statements like Kraus’) are not truthful statements… the organisers have had their reasons for organising one more commemoration and I respect them. We live in a free country,” said Hasanbegovic.
The blind, let alone those with full vision, can see that such public displays of lies as has come out of the Jewish organisation’s leader Kraus, particularly representing a place of note – like the Croatian Jewish council coordination in this instance – seem to be more about desperate measures to protect communist crimes from full exposure and avoid a possible scenario where in relation to WWII and post-WWII Croatia the Holocaust crime would, in relation to number of innocent victims, take a second place in the realm of the worst and most atrocious crimes in human history to the crimes committed by the Yugoslav communists. Wanting to acknowledge and unearth further the true extent of communist crimes in Croatia is labelled, sadly, it seems, even by some Jewish representatives as a return to Ustashi regime, to Nazism – in the hope perhaps to intimidate those trying to unearth the whole truth of communist crimes!
One can imagine nothing crueler towards victims of crimes than this.
As far as I am concerned and from this vantage point, Ognjen Kraus and those who attended the commemoration designed to shun the official one to be held on 22 April under falsehoods and malicious accusations against the current centre-right government can hang their head in shame.
Using remembrance of the Holocaust victims for dirty communist crime cover-up politics is just not the world of piety I want to be a part of.
Attempts to uncover the full truth of communist crimes in Croatia have been labeled as resurgence of Nazism, Ustashism, of historical revisionism in the negative sense that allegedly negates the truth of the Holocaust. And so it seems WWII Croatia when it comes to “bad guys” only had the Ustashas and not the Communist Partisans under Josip Broz Tito. What utter codswallop.
Nobody has the right to stop or intimidate those wanting to unearth the truth about crimes and victims – not even those commemorating the Holocaust. In fact, I believe, that those commemorating the Holocaust should all encourage the seeking of the truth for all innocent victims.
James M. McPherson.
Historian, Princeton University
The eminent American historian James M. McPherson, Princeton University, said in 2003, “that historians know that revision is the lifeblood of historical scholarship. History is a continuing dialogue, between the present and the past. Interpretations of the past are subject to change in response to new evidence, new questions asked of the evidence, new perspectives gained by the passage of time. There is no single, eternal, and immutable ‘truth’ about past events and their meaning. The unending quest of historians for understanding the past — that is, revisionism — is what makes history vital and meaningful…Without revisionist historians, who have done research in new sources and asked new and nuanced questions, we would remain mired in one or another of these stereotypes.”
I hope Croatia’s leaders in government and others will know how to draw strength and courage from the words of this brilliant historian when it comes to pursuing the truth of communist crimes. In Croatia as part of communist Yugoslavia, investigating WWII and post-WWII crimes committed by communist regimes, as well as a revision of the ‘official history’ about the events that took place during the Second World War, was not possible before 1990, after the democratic changes in Eastern Europe and Croatia. Resolution 1481/2006 of the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly strongly condemned human rights violations committed by totalitarian communist regimes and the 2008 Prague Declaration on European Conscience and Communism stated that these crimes were comparable with Nazi crimes but very few people have been tried for committing such crimes.
Moreover, 28 years later, in former Yugoslav republics (e.g. Croatia) “this topic is still a matter of political and scientific debates, and those who dare to ask ‘new and nuanced questions’ are often labeled as the revisionists who should be treated by medical specialists,” said Blanka Matkovic, PhD dissertation Warwick University, UK. And “thanks” to the likes of the Jewish Councils coordination head in Croatia, Ognjen Kraus, those who question WWII crimes or their extent against the form we have been led to believe, those who cannot control or prevent extremist outbursts of individuals in the streets or sports arenas… – are Nazis! Nothing less than Nazis! What an outrage! Ina Vukic, Prof. (Zgb); B.A., M.A.Ps. (Syd)
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Hi Ina,
Ispravi me ovdje (ja neznam detalje), naime, do danas, pronaslo se dosta jama i logora smrti od komunistickog rezima u Hrvatskoj, pa gdje smo sada? Jeli se formirala kakva komisija za istrazivanje/ispitivanje gdje sto I koliki je broj ubijenih za I poslije ww2, ili nije ?? Ja mislim da bi to bio dobar pocetak I da se to ras-svijetli, ta bolna povijest Hrvatskog naroda jednom I zauvijek.
RB
Translation of comment by RB: Please correct me here (I do not know the details), that is, to this day, there have been many pits discovered and death camps from the communist regime in Croatia, so where are we now? Has there been an establishment of some committee for research/examining where what and how large is the number of those murdered during and after WWII, or has tere not?? I think that would be a good beginning to shine a light on all that, that painful history of the Croatia people for once and for all. RB
REPLY:There are over 850 mass graves/pits of victims of communist crimes discovered across Croatia, RB and the real number of victims is not yet determined but beyond 500,000 as believed. Sadly there is no organised body allocated to research or coordinate research on communist crimes – there used to be a centre for theresearch of communist crimes in Croatia that did start some preliminary work (Centar za istrazivanje zlocina komunizma) but that was short-lived with the SDP/communist Social Democrat government shutting it down in 2012 not replacing with anything. So new organised energies in this are truly be needed. One of my posts on communist crimes pits https://inavukic.com/2012/08/19/1700-mass-graves-90-victims-of-communist-crimes/
It’s most obvious that the reign of communist lies and coverups is on its last jittery legs with all this – so many commemorations for one thing! The official commemoration on 22 April will not also be attended by the Union of Antifascist Fighters of Croatia which will organize its own separate commemoration on 24 April…God knows who else will come up with a new date to trample on tired bones of innocent victims for the sake of political scoring in the ultimate betrayal of human kind: the cover up of communist crimes or at least the toning-down of them.
Yep, Wilkinson, one would think people can learn and respect the truth, but – nah! Hence, repeat it, repeat, repeat it!
Bunch of political losers and hangers-on there on Friday 15 April at Jasenovac: Furio Radin – a laughable politician who has been dribbling idiotic stuff for decades there; Milorad Pupovac – the Croatian Serb whose family/brother took arms against Croats in 1990’s and who has made an ethno-business of his political career, Ivo Josipovic – the communist snake that’s giving life to his laughable political nothingness …Lord save Croatia from that loser bunch!
Amen, Chieftain
Its sad to see the truth not come out and the move by Jakov Sedlar is trying to bring out the truth. Why is it that the old Communists don’t want to truth to come out? If what they did was so noble and right, then they should be proud of the fact that they kept Jasenovac open until 1951, they should be proud of the Krizni Put and Bleiburg…yet they do everything to hide the mass murders by Tito, the Partizans and his communist Yugoslav thugs.
Isn’t it a fact that in 1951 one of Tito’s thugs named Boljkovac ordered all the synagogues on Croatian territory destroyed? If so, why aren’t people like Slavko Goldstein organizing commemorative marches for that? Why don’t they also go to Serbia and march in the only city in Europe which declared itself “Free of the Jews?”
Mark Twain once said that a lie can travel around the world before the truth can pick its boot straps up. The Nazi minister of propaganda once said that if yous ay a lie enough times that it will eventually become the truth, and the communist fascists of the eastern block as well as the artificial state of Yugoslavia planted seeds of lies which eventually spread and became the “truth”
The sad part is, you never hear a Croatian talk about the crimes committed against them from 1918-1990, especially what happened in the first “Yugoslavia.” Tomac said it best the other day, in Serbia they are rehabilitating the Cetnik movement and electing radicals to office, while in Croatia we are finding “Ustase” that don’t exist. Its reminding me a lot of 1945 again and the Croatian people are once again being made the criminals when the reality is we were the vicitms.
Slavko Goldstein was and is a communist and was a Partisan in combat fighting for Yugoslavia, Stevie, that is evident so it does not surprise me he doesn’t go after communists or Serbia when it comes to crimes against Jews or anyone for that matter.
Remember communism is about a perpetual revolution at all cost. The truth only hurts those who have something to hide or something gain from darkness. S. Goldstein unfortunately is not interested in the truth. His reasoning is simplistic and one sided – cause & effect. Croatia needs to own it’s history and that requires a re-examination of the past, rigorous and scientific research; not Yugo-Communist propaganda, or Greater Serbian mythology and lies. Once the facts are settled and the truth is known, Croatia will under go a catharsis. And so too will the entire region. Any opposing the search for truth is dishonest, and quite frankly a brain dead zombie with nothing productive to contribute Croatia.
Pressing on with the WWII and Post-WWII truth in particular is the most important task for Croatia – I agree Sunman
Sadly, anti-Semitism’s ugly head is rearing its face in more than Croatia. I’m at the tail end of my next book concerning a woman who survived a concentration camp. The research brought me to a lot of what is discussed here: the facts, the graves, the skeletons. Like your commenter Sunman said, the truth needs to rear its head, ugly or otherwise. Thank you for continuing to post these thoughtful excellent pieces. And may the light of tolerance shine brighter than the hatred in the hearts of those without compassion.
Good to hear about your book, Paulette – at times I wonder if the actions of some Jewish oreganisations or their leaders – e.g. not accepting or helping research into communist crimes or those crimes themselves triggers what one might call antisemitism when in fact no true antisemitism is afoot just fight for the truth? Cheers
I had the pleasure of briefly meeting Prof. McPherson several years ago. He came to speak at the library where I worked about his book about President Abraham Lincoln as a commander-in-chief during the (American) Civil War. For the occasion, I dug up my copy of an older title of his which I’d read as an undergraduate for him to sign. Still got it!
Wow, a privilege then Elisa 😀
most interesting.
excellent post.
Cheers sedge – much appreciated 🙂
I am a danish NGO worker and I was working in southern Bosnia back in 1992 the area with a lot of croatians and the serbs were commiting genocide in the area. I saw 13 year old croatian girls in Serb rape camps, it was disgusting. We were allowed to give food and water to the girls which the troops laughing called ” political jailed” I saw with my own eyes Croat towns burning and their civilians killed only because they dared to vote yes for Bosnian indepedence. Every night 20 men will rape the young croatian girls many of died of bleeding to death. I was recently in the area and one old Bosniak women told me she will rather join hell than sharing a country with serbs again after the actions of the 1990s. Every day the Serbs forced us NGO from the west to help in the deportion with buses picking up Croats and Bosniak civilians forcing them into the areas controlled by the Bosniak army. We did report back to western governments about the genocide they just did not give a damn fuck about it. They knew it.
I believe they knew it too, Kasper – if not, they surelly suspected it and should have started ringing loud bells all over the world.
Reblogged this on By the Mighty Mumford and commented:
REMEMBERING WHAT MUST BE AVOIDED AGAIN—IS NEVER CONVENIENT.
Thank you Jonathan for reblog and, yes, isn’t it always so with things that are hard
What specific lies has Kraus told in connection with the decision by the Jewish council to forego participation in a government sponsored commemoration at Jasenovac?
Also, I have yet to see any mention of communist crimes intermixed with Kraus’ words on the controversy, much less any denial that communist crimes ever took place. Where did you see any evidence of this being supposedly said by Kraus? Please explain. Thanks.
First – if you have enough focus to read – Didova Konoba – first lie is that there is a revitalisation of Ustashi in Croatia; he goes on and talks about people at soccer matches (who are wound and often drunk) chanting as revitalisation of a regime etc – now that is the biggest lie and he says it in order to intimidate research and truth about communist crimes etc. With these words he accuses the whole state/nation of revitalising WWII Ustasha, he fails to respect other victims. Otherwise, you are welcome to do your own research into this and Ognjen Kraus and his stand on pursuing communist crimes.
Hello Ina !
Thank you for visiting ! 🙂
https://youtu.be/KNyAMcIh9z8
Regards,
Aliosa.
Cheers Aliosa – great visit, too 😀
I can read very well, thank you, Ina. What Kraus says about the revitalisation is his OPINION, which is evidently based on the fact that the govt does nothing about the chants at soccer matches… DELETED AS INAPPROPRIATE AND ATTEMPTING TO PROMOTE OPINION AS FACT AND DEFAME THE CROATIAN PEOPLE
For the last time these sorts of comments of yours Didova Konoba seem to be designed to repeat in different form the lies entailed in Kraus’s words. Sorry but the government representatives or the opposition officials have always condemned such incidents and chants at sports games etc it’s just that you people don’t want to hear or see that because you’d like the world to think that this particular government actually can control what individuals do. Go and do research instead of being a nuisance and a troll
I get it, anyone who disagrees with your opinion is a troll.
Contrary to what you may think, there are things govts can do to limit certain forms of free speech. Go to a soccer match in Germany, stand up and start yelling “Seig Heil” and see what happens to your freedom of speech.
Kraus is at least offering facts to support his OPINION, unlike you. DELETED
Didova Konoba – if you don’t want your comments deleted or moderated you either abide by the rules of commenting policy or start your own blog. Kraus offers no facts to support his what you call opinion – no ifs or buts or it seems he straight on accuses: “there is a presence in Croatia of a revitalisation of the WWII Ustashi movement and a complete negation…” direct quote of what he says. As to matches in Germany or elsewhere and chants these happen everywhere in Germany, in Croatia, in Serbia, in Britain…but they do not mean that there is a revitalisation of any WWII regime – there are far-right groupings everywhere but the governments are not penalised for that like Kraus and those with him are trying to punish the government for what is not in its control. Full stop on this! Thank you
Ina, they may not necessarily mean a revitalization but that doesn’t mean that Kraus isn’t free to express his opinions so long as they are based on facts and he’s done so, as far as I can tell. Do you deny that chants have been taking place at football matches and that there exists controversy concerning the selection of Hasanbegovic? These are apparently what Kraus bases his opinions on. Now, you’re entitled to your opinion that these “incidents” are not evidence of a revitalization of the a regime and you may very well be right. But, to say Kraus is simply lying isn’t the right approach to take, is it? You can say you disagree with his opinion and tell us why, and respect to you. Do you understand how this works?
DELETED – hearsay without ability to check the apparent chants in Osijek.
If true, is this too far now? Everyone has been clamoring about how ZDS is not an exclusively an ustasa “salutation” since the controversy first arose a number of years ago now. Kraus evidently wishes the govt to take notice and offer some action. My point is that there is precedent for govts to take action, as the Germans have done to limit certain forms of speech. Is he not entitled to request that appropriate action be taken?
No there is no controversy but opinions of some and I am yet to see any real apart from political twists reasons why Hasanbegovic should not be a minister – again – you along other few do not accept the fact that he has done nothing wrong and that is your business.
By organising a separate commemoration to the official one Kraus is penalising the government for things it had no control over and things that are not true such as revitalisation of WWII regime so that is reason enough for anyone (except perhaps you and few others) living in freedom of expression to criticise him.
ZDS is a historic chant or greeting. Last time I checked Croatia does have appropriate laws regarding insignia WWII, hate speech etc… There is absolutely not much a government can learn in that sense from Kraus I think nor is Kraus doing anything else but fuelling unrest by taking punitive measure against the government based on his misguided opinion as far as government and its powers is concerned. Croatian government has been unfairly targeted by many even from outside like Kraus is doing now .
BTW, Ina. I have a photo of the screen from my reply two previous to this one wherein you accuse me of “defaming the Croatian people”. Nothing in that post is remotely defamatory of the HRV people.
I suggest you post so that your readers can come to their own conclusions. We all know what your ill-educated conclusions are all about. It will be published elsewhere in the event you choose not to. Thank you.
Didova Konoba – you can take as many photos as you wish but the fact still remains that you call opinions of some people opinions and those of others “ill-educated conclusions” – Anybody who says something about individuals and implies that the whole nation or everybody is the same and cannot provide substantiating facts in effect defames or vilifies, I believe – you may know that or you may not, you hide behind a name “Grandfathers Cellar” so what is anyone going to think about your honesty is up for grabs
So the “official”, “protest” “traditional” Jewish commemoration at Jasenovac resulted in approximately 300 attendees. Doesn’t appear to have been too successful as far as organized protests are concerned does it? Even Jewish support for it was meagre to say the least, but whatever, they exercised their democratic right to protest and they did. What I am puzzled about; given that it is obvious that these protesters don’t even enjoy the full support of their own constituents whom they are supposedly representing; is why is our govt. bending over backwards to placate them?
Reading through the reader’s responses, I see no reaction to the words of our highest elected official – President Grabar-Kitarovic. I, for one am still waiting for an explanation for the words she uttered. The same holds true for the words of Premier Oreskovic and Vice President Karamarko – who publicly supported her. I believe they owe Croatians worldwide an explanation. Of course what makes it even more painful is that this was an intentionally worded, govt. approved, public statement -(not some gaff or accidentally misspoken thoughts)-and that being the case, an explanation of this (new?) govt. policy in regards to NDH, the Ustase etc. is anxiously awaited.
So if we are going to be indignant towards those Jews, Serbs etc., who find it offensive to commemorate their dead along with those “other” victims who were CROATIAN, in Jasenovac – in ONE ceremony, than that is to their shame, because a victim is a victim.
But what I find to be the most damnable are the statements of our CROATIAN govt.- the supposed representatives of our CROATIAN people. who continue to regurgitate Tito’s words and propaganda regarding NDH and the Ustase. Tito filled hundreds of grave sites throughout the countryside with Croatian victims and one of these sites was Jasenovac. Instead of highlighting this, our govt. chose to once again ignore these (unworthy?) victims of communism and instead accused them and their compatriots of being part of a criminal regime and thereby culpable and deserving of death? I accuse this govt. of being BLIND to the plight of these CROATIAN victims whom they are once again marginalizing and revictimizing by their cruel words; just as did every Croatian govt. from 1990 to today.
I accuse them of being WILLFULLY IGNORANT of Croatian history – and as such they are as incapable politically as they are morally, to bring any kind of truth to this period of our history so they should keep their mouths shut and thereby feign intelligence. So much for any promises of full lustration from this motley crew, it will not happen, and if it does, you can be sure it will be of the most superficial variety. In fact, because they choose to be ignorant they are defacto a tool for our enemies, both internally and externally. As I said in a previous writing – when Milanovic is publicly supporting Grabar-Kitarovic’s statements then that speaks volumes as to ‘sides’ chosen.
I accuse them of being TRAITORS of the Croatian people because what they publicly said could and should be viewed as nothing other than a capitulation- a surrendering of the values that those who died for Croatia throughout time have staked their lives to uphold. Shame on them, eternal shame. They stood firm with the “antifascists”,communists, partisans and Yugovici and against Ustase who were not fascists, who were not communists, who fought and died for a country called the Independent State of Croatia which would have survived as a country after WWII if it had not been for the communists. They threw their lot in with criminals and traitors and the lines in the sand have been drawn. Now we wait and see.
Za Dom Spremni!
It is my opinion and belief Velebit that times have passed when the Croatian government can talk about or condemn the WWII Independent State of Croatia regime without condemning the Yugoslav communist regime in the same breath. But political scoring seems to be “worthwhile” for politicians all until we the people cut them down from their pedestals.
There is an interesting case going on now former troops in the Bosnian Serb army is accusing a Bosniak lady that used to sing famous love songs in former Yugoslavia, they are saying that they used to be prisoners in camps run by the bosniak government army after being captured in battles. Then the singer lady will arrive with a knife and cute the penis of the serb troops!!! one thing is true she used to sing for the bosniak army troops when they were in battles to rise their fighter moral. But if the story of the penis is true or not is now being run in a court.
Wouldn’t be the first time someone got his willie chopped off, Kasper 😀
I know who you are talking about, she used to be my favourite singer before the war and now she is hated for her nasty tribal songs during the war.
YIKES – looks like you stoked some bitter responses to this commentary. Freedom of speech is a precarious place right now with ‘tolerance’ completely wiped away. Maybe we should revitalize the suffrage movement and demand that homage be paid for the suffering of women these past thousands of years…
Just kidding!
While we learn from history for sure, to carry it around like baggage burns bitterness and rage. Sometimes taking that garbage and giving it to the trashman instead of hording it in a closet is the only way to let it go and move forward. Doesn’t mean we forget – just means we don’t let it dictate our present being.
Just a thought.
So agree Helena – it’s such a shame it’s all happening so bitterly in Croatia and yet all that needs to be done is officially condemn all totalitarian regimes as they have all caused much suffering and deaths and move on, but, I guess too many of those around who want to protect the false memory of communist ancestors so it’ll take a while and some effort still to achieve
Ina,
Is this what you’re bleating on about? http://www.croatia.org/crown/articles/8536/1/E-Croatia-Officially-Condemns-Communist-Crimes.html
Croatian government officially condemned the crimes of the communist regime for acts committed from 1945-1990 by resolution passed in Sabor. Please note, date was July 2006.
So, who exactly are “those around who want to protect the false memory of communist ancestors”? Seems to me what you’re asking for was sorted out a decade ago, no?
No need for your “wisdom” Didina Konoba – only last week a Social Democrat/ex communist member of parliament, in parliament of Croatia stood up and defiantly greeter loudly First Deputy Prime Minister Tomislav Karamarko/HDZ with the strongest of communist Yugoslavia chants/greetings “Smrt Fasizmu”(Death to Fascism) and no one did anything about that really bar proverbial slap on the wrist by the president of parliament. Now, if communist crimes were truly condemned in practice then MP Ingrid Anticevic-Marinovic would have thought twice about being so hateful. Don’t forget Tito’s “Death to Communist” chant was the evil malicious energy that murdered some 1.2 million innocent people in Yugoslavia.
This coward here who hides under a pseudonym of Didova Konoba has just revealed his/her rottenness he/she is abhorred at Za Dom Spremni/For Home Ready chants etc at soccer matches and says nothing about or tolerates as OK a parliamentarian/communist chanting “Smrt Fasizmu” Yugoslav communist killer’s chant. All the power to you Ina for working so hard to settle once and for all Croatia of all WWII and post-WWII crimes. Communism or nostalgia for it must be rooted out by hook or by crook
Indeed Marko, thank you
Reblogged this on idealisticrebel and commented:
Excellent. I hate to admit, I never really thought of Jews in Croatia. You have made a major change in me, Ina. My grandfather would be so impressed with you.
Thank you Barbara – so kind
Wonderful information, Ina. There has been so much suffering in Croatia through out history. Going cold turkey and facing reality and creating a new functioning Croatia would be one answer. Reality is the answer. Hugs, Barbra
Reality should work indeed if only there was more courage to face it. Perhaps one day, hugs my friend Barbara <3
Ina,
You asked me to do my “own” research, so I did and offered you a response to the following:
“it’s such a shame it’s all happening so bitterly in Croatia and yet all that needs to be done is officially condemn all totalitarian regimes”.
As it turns out the ALL THAT NEEDS to be done was actually done ten years ago! So obviously there is a need for my “wisdom”, no? What more do you want?
Anticevic-Marinovic was publicly called out in Parliament for her choice words. In your opinion, what punishment should she face? Is she really being hateful for calling out what she sees as a rise in fascist ideology? Is it then “hateful” for anyone else to criticize a rise in other political ideological incidents? What are your opinions on this? I thought this blog was all about the open and frank discussion of varying opinions on subjects related to Croatia.
The blog is open, Didova Konoba, however it seems you are not or you are underhanded and not accepting. Anticevic-Marinovic in parliament did what Kraus did: from a place of note or power she accused the government of being fascist by greeting. She is an odious politician. Under the previous government SDP where she was a hopeless minister there were increased incidents of what you call rise of fascism at football fields etc but I have not heard her ask in parliament her Prime Minister what he proposes to do to stop these individuals doing thing. As you well know in democracies all over the world there are ultra-nationalist political parties being formed, and citizen groups etc acting in so-called fascist ways but you do not see governments being blamed for that – the laws of the countries permit such freedom as long as no crimes are being committed these can function. That is a fact of democracy. Was it enough for her to have been publicly called out, you ask – if you ask justice (and me) then answer is NO! NO! NO. She should have been suspended from parliament and her motives investigated so she feels the consequences of her malicious words. But, to prove my point of biased treatment and lack of true condemnation of communist crimes I believe the laws regulating inciting hate, hate speech, insignia from WWII etc relates only to Ustashe and not communists so, she cannot be investigated or penalised like say Simunic was when he chanted “Za Dom” at soccer match, it is up to the people to seeks changes in law too saw laws reflect the words of condemnation. Obviously you choose not to understand or acknowledge this unfairness, injustice etc As to discussions on this blog I believe you have had a good run even though it was clear early on that you do not stand on side of justice or at least in this case. If you stood for justice then you would know what true condemnation stands for: words and deeds. Full stop!
Its interesting how the far left cries about a “rise in Fascism” when they lose an election. Yet, this rise in fascism in Croatia wasn’t there when they were in power, so when they lose its “fascism is rising,” yet the only people talking about it is the fascists themselves which are the far left who misses Yugoslavia dearly and will do anything to destroy Croatia. What we’re seeing now is a scary atmosphere created by the left where once again they are labeling anyone who is against them a “fascist,” and if you are a proud Croatian you are a “fascist,” and if you don’t tow their party line you are a “fascist.” Where are the examples of rise of fascism? You want Fascism? What is it that the totalitarian communists did other than their form of fascism? Why are the crimes committed by the communists hidden and protected at all costs. Tito was a murderer, one of the top 10 in the 20th century…he was a genocidal maniac who wanted to get rid of Croatia and Croatians and he did his best…in the jails, in Bleiberg, with his UDBA terrorizing Croatians, and he did it with mass graves and work camps and then blamed it on the Croatian people…remember their motto: “In order for Yugoslavia to live, Croatia must die.” At the same time, this didn’t start with Tito either, this all started with the formation of the first Yugoslavia in 1918 and the Croatians have been victims of it every since and we are still victims of it…just wondering, did Milanovic, Josipovic, and Rankovic find the people who drew the swastika in Split? The answer is no because they know that it would be traced back right to the real fascists…SDP and the far Yugoslav loving left who still Croatia and its people captive.
You got it, Stevie – it’s such a crying shame that Anticevic-Marinovic was not led out of parliament last week when she “greeted” HDZ leader with “Death to fascism” – what an outrage!
Okay, Ina. That’s a start then. So you propose that A-M should be suspended from her position in Parliament, right? That sounds fair. Have you made your proposal known to your representative in Parliament? When the original condemnation was isdued, did you protest that it did not go far enough? I’m not sure what you mean that I’m underhanded and not accepting. I’m more than willing to listen and consider your points and even offer suggestions.
BTW, it wasn’t me that said there is a rise in fascist incidents at football fields. I said that Kraus cited these incidents (his words) as evidence of an increase in fascist incidents over the course of the past year or so. He offered these incidents together with the appointment of Hasanbegovic as facts on which he bases his OPINION because thats what it is; his opinion. Do try and keep up now.
I believe you’re right about the govt regulations on hate speech in Croatia. Then again, in Germany their regulations on hate speech relates only as to Nazis. You can say anything “hateful” about a German Communist or a Stasi and not face criminal sanction. Is that fair?
Please do not compare Germany to Croatia, Didova Konoba! East German “Stasi” were not part of West Germany for many decades and I guess at reunification of Germany the West principles prevailed, which know communists murdered, Stalin murdered some 36 million… Besides you can talk of UDBA in Croatia too. And regarding laws to regulate hate etc speech to do with communist regime – yes I did write letters and petitions to the right places but as you know Croatian democracy has been at the mercy of communist fascists ever since 2000 bar a few years in between. One cannot use ones opinion to penalise someone as if what is in the opinion is proven fact to do with person subject of opinion and that is what A-M, Kraus etc are doing. Revolting stuff.
Please rephrase your second to last sentence. I don’t understand what you’re getting at and I’d like to make every effort to respond to you.
Why can’t I compare Croatia to Germany. Both have laws regulating hate speech and both have former Commies in positions of power, right? What does Stalin have to do with Germany?
Who are A-M and Kraus “penalizing”? I thought they were speaking out against their fears of a rise in fascist sentiment in their country. We don’t want a rise in fascism, whether it be Ustasa or Communist, do we?
WWII Germany did not have Nazis and Communists at each others throats, one wanting independent Germany and the other no independence. So, as far as hate speech regulation in Croatia is concerned both WWII sides must be treated equally as both murdered innocent people equally. Stalin has to do with communism just as Stasi has. A-M and Kraus are penalising the Croatian government: A-M with her “Death to fascism” directed at government representatives directly names the government as fascist and Kraus by not attending the official government ceremony in Jasenovac punishes the government (so it is not just an opinion he expresses he actually acts upon it as if it was proven that the government is by purposeful actions revitalising fascism). Thank you on you interest but I am tired of repeating the obvious. Kind regards. I don’t see any rise of fascism so I cannot say whether people want it or not. Bye.
Yes, but both Nazis and German Communists murdered innocent people. Same effect, no? Kraus is entitled to act on his OPINION. He hasn’t attacked or defamed anyone but only acted out of protest to what he sees as a growing trend.
The reality is that Kraus acted on his opinion with providing proof that there actually is revival etc of fascism that actual government and parliament who organised official Jasenovac commemoration can be blamed for and Kraus is not a court of law to come to such conclusion or punishment – so please you keep your opinion to yourself and I will keep justice to myself : opinion DOES NOT EQUAL confirmed FACT. Kraus has a right to protest but not to say I do this because…and that because has no connection with fact. So as far as I am concerned the man is not worth my time here I have said what I believe he is about and full stop for me.