Bob Dylan Photo: Fred Tanneau/AFP
AFP Reports: Bob Dylan has been charged with insulting behaviour and incitement to hatred in France after a Croat group filed a complaint about an interview in Rolling Stone magazine, a judicial source says.
It follows a legal complaint lodged by a Croat association in France over a 2012 interview Dylan gave to Rolling Stone magazine.
The American singer was questioned and charged in mid-November after the group complained about the interview, in which he allegedly compared the relationship between Jews and Nazis to that of Serbs and Croats.
The Council of Croats in France (CRICCF) had filed the complaint a year ago over an analogy he made in the 2012 interview while discussing race relations in the United States.
Back in September 2012 I wrote a post on Bob Dylan’s atrocious, vilifying and hateful statement regarding Croats and Serbs and KKK and Americans in his Rolling Stone interview.
Reuters has just released this news item:
“The American singer Bob Dylan is being investigated in France after a Croatian community organisation alleged that comments he made to Rolling Stone magazine last year amounted to incitement to racial hatred, Paris prosecutors said on Monday.
In the interview, published in the magazine’s September 27, 2012 edition, the singer said racism was holding America back.
‘If you got a slave master or (Ku Klux) Klan in your blood, blacks can sense that,’ he was quoted as saying. ‘That stuff lingers to this day. Just like Jews can sense Nazi blood and the Serbs can sense Croatian blood.’
The formal investigation followed a legal complaint from the organisation, CRICCF (the Council of Croats) , which is based in France, alleging that the comments as carried in the French version of the magazine violated French racial hatred laws.
In France, racism complaints automatically trigger formal investigations, irrespective of the merits of the case.”
Great going Council of Croats in France – you have done what I hoped my article on this blog would spark: defend the Croatian truth and pride by pursuing anyone who tramples on them without regard to the truth or whom they vilify and insult. Bit by bit, with perseverance, Croatian truth will show, hateful propaganda will fall.
Whatever comes out of this, and I trust Dylan will be called upon to answer, one thing is for sure: Dylan and hopefully other celebrities who often appear reckless in commenting about a nation of people will think twice before doing it again and, if they have a tendency to spill out offensive and hateful or scandalous blurts then they will be advised to get their facts right first and then open their mouth!
Hopefully Dylan will be forced into a situation where he will be faced with what utter devastation, genocide, rape, torture, concentration camps…were committed by Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina during 1990’s, learn a bit about history before speaking in ways that so deeply offend today’s generation. Ina Vukic, Prof. (Zgb); B.A., M.A.Ps. (Syd)
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This is so ridiculous! People should be educated and not forced into believing that Croats were victims only. Both sides were equal in blame. When we recognize that atrocities were committed on both sides, we will then realize that the war wasn’t even worth it.
Sorry Iva, there is nothing ridiculous about applying the law and this is what is happening here, if Dylan breached it, and I think he is with malice too, then he must bear responsibility for his actions. Mind you he will probably end up fined and cautioned etc, he might even allow himself to apologise to the Croatian people (and Americans, while he’s at it), whatever he does one thing is for sure: he will take note, at least a little. Both sides ARE NOT TO BLAME FOR THE WAR! ONE WAS THE AGGRESSOR (Serbs) and Croats were forced to defend themselves as their lives were threatened. Sorry, to disappoint you on this. But, the truth is that both sides had individuals who committed war crimes and Serbs only had a policy of aggression and take-over.
Both sides are not equal, one just has to remember Vukovar. The pain of losing the war the Serbians experienced in Oluja was not a war crime as they want it to seem but the consequence of launching an offensive of destruction screaming” Slobo give us some salad we will make the meat of Croatians”. The Serbians wanted to destroy Croatians the Croatians wanted to be independent and free. So no is not the same. Only one side is to blame for the war, the ones who started it, not the ones who wanted freedom. Croatia did not bomb itself. Enough of the propaganda, that is what has perpetrated the violence the calls that ” Vukovar is Serbia” and other continuous aggression from Velika Serbija mentality to Croatian independence. If not enough of Croatia is known or about its side is because Croatians have wanted to live in peace but is the other side which does not allow peace, the side that bombed a horse farm in Dakovo, the side that refuses to tell where even the bones or looted Croatian art is. Where is the justice for Croatia. Were the Lipizzaners Ustasha too that is why they had to be bombed? Sorry Ina but this response upset me.
Iva, both sides are not to blame.
There is absolutely no guilt equivocation between Croatia and Serbia – which would be like equating Polish and Czech “guilt” with Germany for Germany’s invasion and genocide(s).
Croatia offered the Serbs more autonomy than what the Kosovars had before the ILLEGAL coup by Milosevic in Kosovo (installing a yes man regime, abolishing Kosov’s autonomy, and keeping the Kosovo vote in the SFRJ Presidency) – they refused every single offer of peace and higher autonomy than Kosovo and Vojvodina in the 1974 SFRJ constitution.
The Serbian political, academic, military, media and church establishments ALL joined forces in the anti-Croat / Albanian / Slovenian / Muslim hate speech campaign that started with the publication of the SANU Memorandum, Serbia’s intelligentsia’s Mein Kamf, which Serbian academics wrote and which every pillar within Serbian society and the overwhelming majority of Serbs in Yugoslavia embraced wholeheartedly.
The war criminal Serbian leadership of the JNA, in concert with Milosevic’s secret services and JNA counterintelligence, began arming Croatian and Bosnian Serbs a full year before any non-Communist parties were even formed (so the Serbs didn’t arm and rise up because they were a “threatened people” as their, and their Western supporters, liked to claim).
The JNA General Staff outlined ethnic cleansing and the systematic targeting of civilians as a means to “demoralize the enemy” in 1990, in the Rampart (RAM) Plan, a full year before Serbia’s pre-planned, highly coordinated genocidal war of imperialist aggression began. This order was disseminated all the down to JNA / Serbian MUP / Serbian Guard Brigade privates.
Because for total separation, in an all or nothing war, the Serbs’ needed to get their hands dirty to ensure that no Serbs would go soft and decide that after a year or two of fighting they might want to make a deal with anyone. That is why the SRAO “Krajina” war criminal leadership ordered the evacuation of all Serbs, which was long pre-planned and pre-rehearsed. This is something that Gotovina et. al. shadow author and eight Serbian JCE participant Savo Strbac admitted to (by mistake) on Banja Luka television on 7 Aug 1995.
FYI: Serbs were and remain responsible for over 90 percent of the attrocities committed in the wars, with Croats, Bosniaks and Albanians splitting the rest.
There is no moral equivalancy whatsoever.
Iva, How much do you know about the first Jugoslavia? Do you know who did what to who from 1919 to 1939? Do you know how the Croats and Muslims suffered under the Serbian Monarchy/dictatorship?
That is a morsel of history everyone seems to conveniently forget – because the Serbs, like between 1945 and 1993 (thanks to the Markale bombing and US domestic issues forcing Clinton to intervene), had the full support of all of the West save the Vatican, Germany and Austria.
Imperialism – military and cultural – is bad unless it is ok with (or carried out by) the UK, France, Netherlands….
It’s confusing because both sides suffered losses and both sides had their blame. I don’t understand why Dylan would draw that analogy and just spent the last 30 minutes reading up on Croat and Serb history (of course a skimpy overview) to try to understand and still I’m confused. If it’s clear to you, would you mind explaining this to me? Thanks, Paulette
My hunch is that Dylan is under impressions formed from wrongly written or incomplete but biased history of WWII since he is referring to Nazis (poor man failed to learn that Serbia exterminated 94% of its Jews by May 1942 and was one of the first countries in Europe to proudly declare itself “Judenfrei/ Jew Free”by May 1942 and have managed to keep that part of their history under or as much under the carpet as possible and blame the Germans for it… You will get confused reading about the history between Croats and Serbs because as you can appreciate history that has been written has been written by “victors”and they have not recorded all the facts of history – so today’s generation have a responsibility to correct the history – e.g. communist crimes have been protected from view and justice to mention only one.
The Serbs were aggressors against Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina because Serbia did not want these countries to secede from Communist Yugoslavia. Serbs started a war of terrible, genocidal, ethnically cleansing aggression in 1991 and, of course Croatia defended itself…There are political moves to equate the victim with the aggressor in order to achieve reconciliation but the truth is reconciliation will never be achieved if the truth is not pursued and war criminals dealt with severely – people are not rag-dolls I’d say. Dylan to my view deserves everything he gets because he failed to check the facts that for instance Croatia was politically split during WWII into 3: pro Nazi, communists and those in-between who wanted nothing to do with any of the two. And yet Dylan has the gall to paint all with his same hateful brush, to vilify a nation of people which has done absolutely nothing to him except perhaps made him a bit richer by buying his music – he is therefore a pathetic little man in my eyes, an apology would be good from him.
I agree with you, in his case is that Dylan has swallowed the lies about Serbian victimhood fed by the propaganda. May be he should visit the hospital at Vukovar.
And Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina … thank you Michelle R.
Hi Inavik,
I haven’t chatted with you for a while. Hope all is well and good with you.
I hate the anti-free speech laws of Europe. Even Americans are struggling to keep their constitutional right to voice dissenting opinions. This goes far beyond Mr. Dylan’s right to say what he thinks, because it affects everyone of us. We must allow dissent, even if we very strongly disagree with what was said. The world is going the way of Turkey, where one can be given long jail sentences for mentioning the genocide of the Armenians. The way to respond to something we don’t agree with is to reply as you did by writing a counter-argument in an article.
Yet, there is a good deal of intimidation going on over one voicing one’s views. Thanks to Bradley Manning, now serving 30 years in prison, and having been tortured in his military cell; and to Edward Snowden, whom the US Attorney General promised (and this is hard to believe, but true) that the United States would not torture Snowden if they handed him over to them–thanks to these two men, we have some idea of the extent that the government is over-reaching at home and world-wide with their surveillance programs. For instance, I am a US citizen, and I know that every word that I write is being stored on super-computers. Everyone is under constant surveillance. Even the leader of a US “ally,” Germany, is.
One hesitates to express opinions that one can be jailed, tortured, or disappeared over. This is an intentional global corporation-lead strategy to rule and reign over the world’s population with an Orwellian iron fist.
For that reason, I strongly believe that you should speak up for Mr. Dylan’s right to speak, while strongly condemning what you believe to be bad ideas. All of our freedoms are being eroded, and we must resist as fervently as possible. That’s my opinion on the issue.
Donald Miller – thank you for comment, I do not think anyone has anything against free speech just like anyone hasn’t got anything against free actions EXCEPT when that freedom includes statements (not opinions) that are lies or actions that are criminal. We are all free within the bounds of truth and decency. There are many ways to express ones opinions without insulting another by imputing terrible things that are untrue. Only the victims of such reckless freedom know what is meant by that. I have no problems with freedom of speech if it includes the truth but I have a big problem with the opposite and I cannot condone it. Vilification laws, defamation laws … exist for a good reason to preserve everyone’s right to dignity and everyone’s right to defend it when it’s attacked. As to Bradley Manning and Snowden their “sin” is different to Dylan’s in this case, they spread cold facts and yes it is a shame that they must suffer for it.
The Nuremberg trials remind me a bit of a joke I heard on a TV show. Someone says, “Our prime suspect has an iron-clad alibi.” The other person asks, “And what could that be?” Reply, “He was on the other side of town killing someone else when this murder occurred.”
That’s a bit like what happened to Goering and the others over one of the events for which they were found guilty and executed. But they were wrongly accused, in that instance. We now know it to be a fact that on that particular charge, it was the Soviets that committed the massacre.
My point is that cold facts are sometimes difficult to find and often difficult to accept if they go against our believes, especially ones that are cherished. Myself, I don’t really have that problem. I’m willing to follow the facts to wherever they lead.
Now, I admit that I don’t know enough about the issue Dylan was referring to to comment on it, but I do know that it often takes a good deal of time to sort everything out.
As an aside, the Israelis use the excuse that they were under attack and were “only” defending themselves when they used white phosphorous, a horrific agent that burns down and into the bone, against both the freedom fighters of Palestine and the civilian population.
“Manufacturing Consent”. As the title of the book by someone we both admire, Noam Chomsky, indicates, Consent is often manufactured for wars (gee, do we Americans know that after Bush got us into Iraq) and other actions used to enrich the richest of the rich and the corporations that they own.
I abide by the notion that one should always be skeptical–and vigilant. Truth is a fragile thing.
Hahaha Donald – testing our memories of being a fan of Noam Chomsky. 😀 This one slipped from my radar and a few moments ago I commented similar in another reply not realising you’d already remembered:D. That’s what you get when you have several internet programs/live-sites opened and your eyes move from one to the other, battling for attention … 21st century, last century I would have just been sitting down watching so TV – before reality TV came to relieve me of becoming a couch potato 😀
Totally agree regartding difficulties in accepting cold facts if they go against already established beliefs – but there are those who are open to follow facts regardless, like you, and this is what makes the world a good place, after all
Thank you so much for your time and this very thorough thoughtful answer which I read all of and am grateful for. I’m with you on trying to get the facts and that’s why I tried to read up on the history a little before commenting but once I did that I was more confused than ever about the article referring to Dylan, which from yours here I see left the facts out. Reading this from you also gives me a deeper understanding of your site here, back to WWII, and I appreciate that. Thank you again. Paulette
Thank you Paulette, love your efforts and interest.
As much as I am for free speech, I’m glad he’s facing some consequences for his actions. Uneducated celebrities should keep their mouths shut on things which don’t concern them. It’s one thing to be blissfully ignorant of the truth, it’s another to be blissfully ignorant and maliciously spread your ignorance and hatred onto impressionable fans. Croatians have a hard enough time getting the truth out in the open, against decades of communist lies and the rehabilitation of war criminals; we don’t need these holier-than-thou celebrities making the task all the more difficult.
Bit by bit, Kat, the truth will out! Itćs a shame though the world has to put up with people like these, so I am glad at least some consequences will follow for him and the best thing out of it for Croatian truth is that world media has covered it and thereby awareness of “something is wrong” will do much good I believe.
Silly thing to say by Dylan but I doubt he will be punished. An apology and an admission of ignorance would be good. The problem for anyone is that the history of the Balkans and of former Yugoslavia is just so complicated. I studied the history of the region at University but was shocked when I visited to realise just how little I knew. History lessons can only be fairly superficial when dealing with so many complex issues.
Yes Andrew, I do agree the best one may see is a fine and slap over Dylan’s fingers. But still – a point made and lesson learned, on his part – let’s hope!
I hope I’m not over-stating my case for free speech, but what if you could be jailed for writing–
“The Serbs were aggressors against Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina because Serbia did not want these countries to secede from Communist Yugoslavia. Serbs started a war of terrible, genocidal, ethnically cleansing aggression in 1991 and, of course Croatia defended itself…”
What if there was a law where the Serbs could accuse you of inciting hatred against them and demand that you serve a prison term? There may not be, yet. But as our freedoms continue to diminish, it seems we are seeing the future–and it is a frightening one. Let’s not forget about the Soviet’s “mental institutions” for people who held the “wrong ideas.”
If you’re referring to Manning and Snowden cases when telling the truth is concerned and they, as I said sinned were held to have “sinned” – the matter is related to the fact that by doing what they did was in breach of law under which they were employed and needed to comply according to those who prosecute and persecute. That is an entirely different kettle of fish from commenting as a member of the public on facts already published etc.
Again, everything written is the truth and of public interest or concern, related to the topic of my blog which is set out in writing in advance. Facts are behind everything said so that is quite different to spurting out malicious lies. Hatred is not stating the facts, hatred is trying to say that stating the facts is hatred. By your account of possible hatred accusations we must burn all history books. Also, comments or opinions based on facts about political figures have been found in a Croatian court last year not to constitute defamation – I have stored away plenty of factual evidence to back up what I say and I always make sure I link to sources of information that are objective, i.e. not originating from me. So my point is, if something is the truth and the public needs to or wants to know then go for it.
Ina, I didn’t suggest this at all. “By your account of possible hatred accusations we must burn all history books.” My view is exactly the opposite. The lies contained in erroneous history books are in a very real sense history themselves, displaying the tactics of propaganda that people are willing to use. As such, the books have great educational value, and even if they didn’t, I’m opposed on principle to book burnings. In other words, I’m not a book burner. I hope we are both on the same side–and we probably are. This just illustrates how difficult it can be to sort out issues. We should debate and thing–not go around jailing each other. (And if someone is able to, but unwilling to debate, he or she comes out the loser for the fact that he or she knows their argument isn’t a good one).
In agreement with you Donald! The reference to history books was in reference to one being open to lawsuits for telling the truth – which cannot be, even thouigh much of history written has a great deal missing from it. For example, if you told someone that Stalin had his judges judging Nazis in Nuremberg after WWII while he and his regime murdered some 30 million of their own people that someone would not believe you because its not written in history books! Every attempt these days to review or correct historical accounts is portrayed “hatefully” as historical revisionism! And those who use such labels usually have something to hide or are suspected of having something to hide from history! I agree we must debate but debates must always end with some sort of results – and this is many times not of one side or other’s interest???
Also of note about the Nuremberg Trials that my hero, Noam, mentions frequently. (Although I haven’t mentioned this to him, because it’s easy enough to know that he referencing the trial as a test of actions by world leaders.) Yet, it is an argument with huge limitations. You mentioned Stalin, so I’ll mention the United States. It’s rather striking to realize that while that trial was occurring, the US dropped a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima. And after the verdict was reached we dropped another one on Nagasaki. ALL countries commit war crimes. It’s up to the citizens to shame the evil-doers into abiding by decent human conduct. The British and Americans–and here I am speaking about war crimes committed by my own country–fire-bombed Dresden and several other cities in Germany. Indeed, more people (civilians) were burned alive in Dresden that were killed by the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki.
Noam takes the position that it is the duty of the citizens of a country to speak out against the crimes of their country. I agree. He’s Jewish, and yet he is the foremost critic of Israel, a country that deserves to be condemned on multiple levels. (Interestingly, if I said that in France, I’m pretty certain the thought police would be hauling me off in the morning.) Yet, it is true. Nevertheless, because the media dishes out massive misinformation by the US’s “Free Press” that the public reads and believes, Israel can get away with just about anything.
Donald – the press “sucks” – most say they just report the facts but don’t say “selected” facts in some instances. Mainstream is controlled just like mainstream history books. I am so a fan of Noam Chomsky (I think I said that a while ago – did one of my university theses on his psycholinguistics) and I totally agree that it is everyone’s duty to speak against crimes in their country…
The relationship between the Croats and Serbs is not very complicated if you take the time to look at history in small steps and look at the action-reaction chain of events. It is very clear who is the victim.
Thank you Zeljko on comments, I too think history is not complex, it seems to many because it had become a fashionable propaganda to talk of some ages-old hatred between the people instead to sticking to facts.
I think I said that the history of the whole region is complicated? But your suggestion is a good one – Thanks!
I agree that Dylan shouldn’t sing what he doesn’t really know about. But, in reality it happens – in the darkest part of the human mind (for some ungodly reason). I think the touchier we are, the more prejudice we breed.
I agree gpcox but also it is in human nature to want to defend ones dignity when it is being so recklessly played with. Sensitivity is there for a reason and it has its history, just like a child abused – he/she cannot really move forward fully until the abuser learns a lesson otherwise the sensitivity continues. And prejudices develop because of prejudices… vicious circle really, but human nature – defense mechanisms within us naturally – spark us into action.
That’s what I meant in the vicious cycle. It is human nature to defend oneself, but if one is too insecure, that aides in sustaining prejudice.
True gpcox, but what is the answer? Insecurities too come from somewhere – intimidation perhaps?
Depends on far it gets pushed, I guess. Moderation on both sides.
Oh, yes, gpcox – how great mutual moderation would be.
gpcox – if someone raped and murdered your daughter, and you know who did it, and you had an opportunity to confront that person in a lonely dark alley how moderate would you be?
Appalling and inappropriate analogies made by Dylan. Let us hope that his intellectual contributions to the public domain will not carry the same weight as his iconic musical contributions.
This article has sparked some very interesting commentaries from your readers, and such profound and urgent responses from you, Ina. Thank you for your passion and dedication to truth and justice. I learn something new from every article you write.
Thank you Jasna Guy.
The fact is as a Jew he is displaying the same thing that many Jews were raised to do and that is to distort the truths against those they deemed to have done them harm and at any cost. If he truly misspoke because he did not know what he was talking about it should be easy to forgive him all he has to do is admit it.This will not be the last time someone does this.Until we get a nationalist hardline government installed that will defend Croatia and its people we will have to continue to deal with these types of comments by people who think they have a powerful voice. We have just as many idiots in our government that need to be educated like this hapless singer.
Yes Michael, it is regretful that today’\s young generation especially is forced to suffer the consequences for something they have not done and yes it is time that every time someone does what Dylan did we hit back by asking for justice to be served to them, nothing will change quickly but change is set in motion that way, at least
Michael, Alain Finkielkraut is a Jew and he entirely debunked Serbian propaganda (if the French Croats are already going to waste time and money, then let them call in Alain as an expert witness – he is a Frenchman btw): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4bVMKEm7cY.
Dylan is a dried up former junkie musician, not a historian, nor a politician.
His opinion on Croatia is about as important as a DC bum’s opinion – not at all.
You can’t sue people for voicing their (stupid) misinformed opinions on issues.
As odious as his false comparison was, he has a right to say what his senile, drug-abused mind thinks.
This sort of PC policing is exactly what is happening in Croatia, against Croatians and the interest of open debate and allowing people to decide what to believe for themselves. Therefore I am totally against this suit, and I think it would be smarter to send him a letter briefly explaining how his opinion was wrong, factually and morally, and how it was in fact exactly what Serbian fascists, who are in power in Serbia today, want to hear. I’d also send a free copy of Serbia’s Secret War or any English translations from HDMCDR or of Domazet’s books to show him just how wrong his opinion was.
I’m more concerned with the hate speech spewed by senior EU and especially UK officials, as well as “journalists” (the Yugoslav Communist child of Yugoslav Communists who survived Communism and laughed all the way to the bank and her vile hate speech and manipulations as an educated person, author and self-styled “journalist,” comes to mind of people who could legitimately be sued for hate speech and knowningly and willingly engaging in David Irvinesque historical revisionism to support their own hate speech) about Croatia, especially before, during and after the Gotovina and Markac hearings.
This is a counter-productive waste of time that will lead to ridicule, IMHO.
Well therealamericro, Dylan just did not give an opinion it was a false statement as far as it transpired and – and many are offended and I (and many others) believe it to be akin to criminal defamation – the courts in France will say their bit on it. There is a difference between an opinion and statement. Opinions are nether here nor there, one can take them or leave them but statements that lead the public to believe in truth of what is said and it is not the truth are quite another kettle of fish.
It was a false statement, but, false statements (as long as not to law enforcement or in court) are not illegal.
Free speech is free speech.
Now, as a public figure Mr. Dylan has certain responsibilities, but being misinformed is not a crime.
Like I said, calling him out and sending him a copy of Serbia’s Secret War, any English translation of Admiral Domazet’s books, or any English translation of HDMCDR books would be far more effective if it were accompanied with a press release.
My point is that, while I have always been an advocate of inversion as tactic in the media war that still has to continue as there has been no catharsis in Serbia or by Serbs in neighboring country, nor by their foreign (state and or academic / journalistic) sycophants, engaging in statement policing of uneducated, senile former junkie musicians and trying to hold them accountable, as opposed to educated, employed journalists, historians and or politicians, is a counter-productive waste of time.
The lies, hate speech and historically pornographic bile spewed by Jugoslavenka Drakulic, and more or less the Foreign Office, UK and Dutch embassies in Zagreb, are far more dangerous.
Dylan is a musician, not a journalist, academic or politician. He is a public figure but not a politician or professional whose opinion matters, or whose opinion can or will influence anyone of any importance.
The comments on the Rolling Stone article below more or less debunked him.
This is a waste of time and money.
Yes therealamericro, being misinformed is not a crime but crimes can be committed with misinformation articulated as if its not misinformation. Whatever happens, I think he will learn a small lesson at least. Which is good.
I see where you’re coming from, but the thing you have to keep in mind is that even washed up old junkie musicians have an impressionable fanbase. Pop culture is influential, one way or another. There are still many people who believe this Serbian/Western propaganda about Croatia and while it’s fine to ignore it for a while and get on with one’s life, there comes a time when someone simply has to do something to set the record straight and call these misinformed idiots out. It’s not about PC policing – no one can stop Dylan or anyone else from saying whatever the hell they want about Croatia, but that does not mean they are free from criticism or from facing the consequences of their actions. However, I agree with you in that I would much rather see the so-called journalists and EU officials, facing consequences for their hate speech, but I hope this is just a small step in the right direction.
Kat, they still have an audience, and a reach, I agree, but have to insist that I still think this is a bit over the top.
The French Croats all know who Alaine Finkielkraut was and is, he was the lone voice of reason and was vilified for it (even accused of being a “Croatian Nazi”), and they could have contacted him or any legit French or French-speaking historian and debunked him via the media, without making us look like ambulance chasing legalists.
I posted the Finkielkraut debunking Serb agitprop video for reference / use in any future instance where the false comparison is made – either as a direct quote in an OPED or letter to the editor, or online article comments sections or forums.
As much as I hate his stupidity and the fact that he expressed his misinformed opinion, I fully support his right to do so.
The war of ideas was not, and never, won in courts.
When the courts decide the war of ideas, its usually in a dictatorship, or a country on the road to dictatorship.
When courts rule on ideas they are legislating dogma. That is a road that should never be travelled, no matter how good the intentions.
See both Yugoslavias, see Croatia’s PC police on “hate speech” – i.e. anything patriotic, yet silent on the daily (realistically, hourly) regurgitations of discredited Serbian wartime hate speech and agitprop on TV, radio, newspapers and online – see Snowden and US bulk surveillance, which to date the government cannot name a single case or instance where any single terrorist act or plot was disrupted, but can be used 30 years from now as blackmail against anyone or their families and friends and children and children’s children, and the ongoing thought crime charges against numerous US veterans and or active duty troops being waged by this government obsessed with people’s thoughts, not the plots they missed (Chechen animals in Boston) and ongoing plots they are not disrupting because the terrorists were off the internet radar by and large for years, and the war against US and international journalists within the US and abroad for printing facts that are in the public interest.
Everyone has the right to be an imbecil when voicing their opinion. And we have all been imbeciles in one way or another. That doesn’t mean we should be sued.
Its up to audiences to ignore, laugh at, believe or debunk them – either by logic, or by voicing their own.
Its the internet age and not early 1990s when there was a moratorium in the Western media on facts regarding Croatia / what was going on.
I am afraid this is counter-productive and will be mocked.
And it opens the possibility for a legal backdoor for Serbs, using the traditionally pro-Serb French legal system, to force through their discredited propaganda as “evidence” to legally make what that moron spewed “truth.”
Don’t think they aren’t sharpening their knives as we speak.
The battle of ideas is for soap boxes, newspapers, magazines, books and comments sections and forums.
Resorting to the courts is an act of desparation and or despotism. Bad press in my view either way.
Dylan spoke of Nazis and not Germans. He spoke of slave masters and the KKK not Americans/Southerners/Whites. But then he spoke of Croats and not the Ustasha.
I see this two ways. He either thinks all Croats are Ustasha and therefore thinks that the terms are interchangeable whilst not considering all Germans as Nazis or all Southerners as Klan members. Or he wasn’t referring to the Ustasha and his vilification stems from Croatia’s war of independence and he has equated the Croats as anti-Serb for defending herself from internal and external Serbian aggressors.
Either way, he is horribly wrong and I think has lost the plot somewhat in his later days.
Heh Felix, we’ll let the French courts unravel that one, in any case – not good at all
Congrats to the Croats in France!
In WW2, both sides were not the same. To understand the context of what happened and WHY you need to look at the first Yugoslavia between 1918 and 1939 to understand who did what first.
If you do not understand the historical context then please refrain from some comments.
if i had the time to make a blog about every anti US thing that is said, I would never sleep This is an aging rockstar that is all but forgotten. Ask anyone under 25 years of age and they won’t even be able to name a Bob Dylan song. Why waste your valuable energy on him?
there’s a saying here in the US “looking for jet trails in Westerns”– like looking for the modern mistakes in a movie that is supposed to be about the past just to find fault with it
Obviously you’re wrong orbitalone76, for if Dylan was all but forgotten his interviews, statements etc would not be picked up by mainstream media that has clout, as to his age that does not count: if you are old enough to dish it out you’re old enough to receive it.
Reblogged this on idealisticrebel and commented:
I watched the videos on the side bars and learned a lot. Hugs, Barbara
Good to know Barbara, thanks!
wow … this is definitely eye opening ! I live in a country where folks say odd things all the time, good bad and really ugly, esp entertainers. Then we all rely on the 1st Amendment . I read what was reported he said, winced then thought about that saying … keep quiet when overseas! NO excuses for his comments yet they clearly sounded like an activist in full effect –
Thanks Nativegrl77 for comment, I think Dylan may be an activist but a poor one at that
agreed !
http://www.clintonlibrary.gov/bosniadeclassdocs.html
Watched Clinton’s speech for over an hour last night and wow what truths he tells. If anyone doesn’t believe the Serbs were the aggressors this should enlighten them. In the end of his speech he states that Serbia to this day is still looking for a greater Serbia.
Good one Michael
Now no one can deny what the Serb agenda is and the truth behind their lies. This speech was just done in October of this year at the Clinton Library. Here you have an American president as of a month ago state that Serbia is still working towards a greater Serbia. Our goverment needs to open their eyes and understand why we say no to Cyrillic in Vukovar. There are going to be more declassification coming soon.
A shame Clinton can’t run for a third term.
Its settled then.
Trg Genocidnog Jugobravara Tita MUST be changed to Trg William Jefferson Clintona.
I’d throw in Nixon Trg as well, find another jugoregime square name and change it to that.
Win points with both the Republicans and Democrats.
therealamericro I totally agree the Tito square MUST go!
Heads up readers, another Yugoslav ultra-nationalist socialist parading as a lipstick liberal is spewing bile and hate speech on Guardian.co.uk: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/04/croatia-gay-marriage-vote-europe-rotten-heart.
Note the comparison to “Seig Heil.”
We can guess very easily on whose payroll the author is, therealamericro – but oh what joy – they’re drawing their last breaths!
In a way, I have an advantage in this debate, which is to say that even though I’ve attempted to figure out who is who and who did what and when, I’m clueless. When an artificial country like Yugoslavia disintegrates and the pent up ethnic tensions and passions are suddenly unleashed and nationalities that are many centuries old form their own unions and begin fighting, it is a complex situation for an outsider to make sense of. That’s one reason why Americans know little and are fairly easily manipulated about international affairs–that and the fact that they don’t really care much about what’s going on in the world.
Yet, this does leave me with a certain degree of freedom to figure out whose argument seems the most plausible.
I looked up what Noam Chomsky had to say about the war. It seems that one group, I think it’s the Croatians, are particularly annoyed with him. Noam is someone whose opinions ought not to be easily dismissed, in my opinion. Of course he is capable of error just as every human being is–but if he is wrong about something, I know that it is due to the limited awareness that is inherent to every human being. All of us are in Pilate’s shoes, and left asking, “What is the truth?”
Here’s a link to people who don’t much like what Noam has to say. http://balkanwitness.glypx.com/chomskydenial.htm
Donald Miller I checked the link and the contributors there etc don’t seem to be Croats
Chomsky’s take on the breakup of Yugoslavia is wrong, plain and simple.
In his and Herman’s book Propaganda model, their premise is that the news is shaped by:
Ownership of the medium
Medium’s funding sources
Sourcing
Flak
Anti-communism and fear ideology
The problem is that Chomsky, addicted to hating on the anti-Communism and fear ideology, but failed to notice that, in the case of Yugoslavia, there was not an anti-Communist position nor fear ideology, but a media, government and academia (which Chomsky was a part of).
Chomsky and Herman’s theory was inverted to persecute the “other side” (non-Communists / anti-Communists) with the rise of the Communist aparatchik Milosevic in 1987, and his systematic destruction of Yugoslavia from within by trampling its 1974 constitution – the entire process, to and include the war up until the Markale massacre in 1993, being at first praised, then denounced with double-speak (“warring sides,” “ancient ethnic hatreds,” etc. ad nauseum).
Ownership of the medium was Corporate, and the corporate was tied to the political establishment of the beltway, which is also connected to the military industrial establishment. Baker, Eagleburger (Eat-a-burger), and Scanlon all were in a massive conflict of interest with their employ in Kissinger & Associates (a subsidiary of the Carlyle Group), which was doing business with Crvena Zastava Arms, which was openly violating the US embargo on Libya.
Funding: if it bleeds, it leads, and it did, entirely dependent on Belgrade’s sourcing. In terms of national strategy, the appeal to ignorance was that it was “ancient ethnic hatreds” and “warring sides” that could not be stopped, therefore at the national level, funding should have not been wasted on intervention.
Sourcing: entirely dependent on Belgrade’s state-owned media, as well as on UDBa / KOS translators of Serbian origin (who, again, dominated the translating for both journalists and international agencies and UN forces). Then of course there was the interviews with openly pro-Serb UK, French, Netherlands, Swedish (Bildt), Russian and of course domestic (US) “talking heads” like Serbian Unity Congress member Daniella Sremac (who was given disproportionate amounts of airtime in comparison to any Croatian lobbyists), fmr. Congresswoman and MD Governor Helen Delich Bently.
Flak: anti-interventionists, endless repetitions of “Croats fought with the Germans in WWII,” “Serbian warriors cannot be defeated” (BUHAHAHAHAHA), etc.
Anti-communism and fear: inverted to anti-Nazism (Croats being falsely framed as “Nazis”) and fear of “a new genocide of Serbs,” as well as false claims of “persecution” of Jews and other groups.
I must point out that this inversion of Chomsky and Herman’s propaganda model is still ongoing, see the marriage referendum reaction and Simunic non-affair made into a “Nazi” scandal (case and point, Srecko Horvat’s hate speech in the Guardian).
Noam thinks of himself as a voice for the voiceless and someone who can rally support for causes that will make the world a better place. He has not sought fame or fortune, and indeed his activist work has taken a great deal of time from his main academic interest, which is Linguistics.
He’s the smartest and kindest man I have ever come across–and he has a backbone of solid steel, fearing neither people’s wrath nor assassination or imprisonment. His worldview of anarcho-syndicalism is one that I held before I even knew there was such an ideology.
Noam thinks of himself as a voice for the voiceless and someone who can rally support for causes that will make the world a better place. He has not sought fame or fortune, and indeed his activist work has taken a great deal of time from his main academic interest, which is Linguistics.
He’s the smartest and kindest man I have ever come across–and he has a backbone of solid steel, fearing neither people’s wrath nor assassination or imprisonment. His worldview of anarcho-syndicalism is one that I held before I even knew there was such an ideology. He began his anti-Vietnam War activities when the US began engaging in the conflict, late fifties, early sixties. At his first speech (antiwar rally) only a few people showed up–the people who sponsored the event, a couple of homeless guess who came in from the cold, and some pro-war nut who looked spent his time glaring at Noam. These activities culminated with him being accused of treason or some such charge, where he expected to serve a lengthy prison term, but the Tet Offensive made the continued government persecution of him seem ridiculous so they didn’t proceed with a trial.
Noam’s birthday is December 7, so last night I made him a digital gift and emailed it to him. I had already sent him a greeting with a digital image of a somewhat cute “Organize” image. Then I got thinking, “Meh. Not much a of a gift.” So I took an image I had on my computer, where his wife Carol, who died in 1998, and Noam were standing in some cavern. Carol’s face was over-exposed, but you could still see her beauty, the humanity and intelligence in her eyes. Anyway, I have a knack for resuscitating wayward photos and I put it in Photoshop and worked on it for about an hour. (It turned out pretty good.) All the while, I couldn’t help but notice the clothes they were wearing. These were not the clothes wealthy people ware, but rather that of the working class. They looked like they were bought at Walmart.
Now, there is a point I’d like to add to that which is relevant to Noam’s character. Just being blunt and honest: I’m a nobody. Noam has no reason to reply to my emails, but he does. I also notice that he goes out of his way to help young people. He’s incredibly generous with his time–and to people who have no way of paying him back. He acts more like a Christian than any Christian I’ve ever met. He’s Jewish, though; and of all the *many* people who might assassinate him, the Israelis are the most likely. Since he’s in his mid-eighties, what would be the point? But, he’s still going strong. He works himself to exhaustion. You can sometimes hear it in the tiredness in his voice. Only death will prevent Noam from fighting the good fight. I dread that day, for I will have lost a great inspiration.
Is Noam a “saint” as I portray him to be? Yes. Yes, he is. Even saints have their human quirks and glitches. None of us are perfect. In a world filled with people who have axes to grind and money to be made, I trust Noam’s judgment more than anyone’s.
To your points:
I totally agree with Noam and Herman’s propaganda model. Corporations, it should be clear to everyone, are gaining greater control over our lives–and at an alarming rate. Take the topic of this thread, for instance. The silencing of Bob Dylan is part of what the corporate elite want–they aim for a self-regulating population where dissent is prohibited. It fits in perfectly with their agenda. They want to control people on a worldwide scale–they not only control the media, but they also control the US government, deciding which wars we will enter and what people will believe about why the working class must go along with their profit-driven, money centered, inhuman agenda. I could go on and on about how the corporation is the anti-Christ, but I won’t.
In the body of your argument, you haven’t really stated why Noam is wrong–only that he might have limitations upon where he gets his most important information. That isn’t any revelation to anyone, is it? Even governmental intelligence agencies face that issue. All someone can do is to find the best most reliable sources and do the best they can in a good faith effort with what they believe to be true and accurate. Noam does that.
You suggest that Noam has a skewed perspective. I don’t believe that to be true. His mission is and always has been to speak truth to power and to be a voice for the voiceless, and that in my opinion, is a life very well-lived. God bless Noam Chomsky.
As an American, I respect and admire our Founding Fathers for instituting the freedom of speech as a guaranteed right in our Constitution. Of course, I don’t have to like when someone says something, but it does mean they shouldn’t say it (no matter how stupid it may be). As the saying goes: speech can startle and offend, as well as enlighten and illuminate (Andrew Napolitano).
Now, what I am really peeved about, is the case of Josip Simunic, the footballer charged with chanting Nazi phrases at a World Cup qualifying match. I find that the American media are quick to point out that what he chanted was from the Nazi/Ustase part of Croatian history, but they don’t explain exactly what he said: Za dom – spremni. What exactly does that translate to into English?
For the homeland – ready! That’s quite an innocuous phrase for those who, like myself, consider themselves patriotic. I can’t imagine an Olympic team athlete getting into trouble for yelling, “For the US – Let’s go!”.
For those generations of Croatians born in other lands, I don’t associate the phrase yelled by Simunic with the Ustase. I truly associate it with being patriotic as the phrase itself is incredibly nondescript. How the media gets away with not reporting the whole truth is beyond me, but that may be reflected in their poor approval ratings (only 44% have a great deal or fair amount of trust and confidence in the media).
Racunovodstvo … and they choose the WWII version of the chant rather than those from way before…nasty intentions!
As I mentioned earlier, I have the advantage of knowing little about the conflict and its participants. I never heard of Josip Simunic until I just read your comment. I looked him up and spent a half hour reviewing him. That vicious foul that he inflicted on that Serb player. Don’t know much about soccer–football, as the rest of the world calls it–but if that’s the normal way the game is played, I’m glad I don’t watch the game.
If an American acted like he did during that incident you mentioned, I’d expect the US sports officials to do exactly what the Croatian one (and other Croates) did–
“Šimunić’s behavior has been denounced by the Croatian Minister of Sports Željko Jovanović, Association of Anti-Fascist Fighters of Croatia (SABH) and various foreign and domestic media.”
Donald Miller, I’ll but in to your reply to Racunovodstvo. It seems to me you’re doing the similar thing that Croatian pro-communist regime was doing when they said Simunic chanted a fascist (WWII) salutation at the end of game with Iceland – the fact that they chose to refer to WWII rather than to centuries before of the history of that salutation is telling quite a bit. Now you pluck out a foul in a game against Serbia! Fouls are quite common in soccer/football games so why politicise it?
As I mentioned, like most Americans, I know little about soccer. The game, for some reason, doesn’t have any appeal to us. Just looking at it made me wince. Josip seems like a man with a lot of anger in him–that’s the impression I get of him.
Myself, I don’t think nationalistic displays are appropriate for a sporting game. But then again, I live in the US where that side of what may, or may not, lie in our character isn’t exposed.
Free speech is appropriate in an interview. But in a sports arena, in my opinion, it is not. The ancient Greeks went so far as to suspend what ever wars were taking place during the time of the Olympic games. Everyone was on their honor to act appropriately. That’s another gift of heritage that they gave us.
Ultra-nationalism is the worst thing in the world! I can say that with an exclamation mark. Here’s just one reason why–
When that young Serb of the Black Hand group viciously murdered King Ferdinand–and for good measure–his wife also, thereby leaving their children orphans, his selfishness lead the world into its bloodiest chapters. ALL of which arose from that killing.
World War One, The Great War, was probably the most savage war in history. Certainly the greatest slaughter of a generation of young people on that scale that had ever occurred.
WWI was the cause for WWII, where industrial mass killing machines were used along with mass transportation systems to move arms and people to do the devil’s work. Humanity at its very worse, born of hatred.
Donald, is it nationalistic to cheer, chant, salute “USA, USA, USA!” when international games are played? No it’s not but some might think so. Why isn’t the Serbian nation blamed for the start of WWI because one Serb murdered Ferdinand in Sarajevo? Why would you assess Simunic is an angry young man when there is nothing to suggest that from his personal life, public knows of? Where does that impression come from and how does it compare to other leading sports persons in the world?
Hi Ina, I have the impression that my comments are annoying you, which is something I don’t want to do. Better if I just stick with commenting on non-controversial things.
Oh no Donald, your comments are not annoying me at all, I just ask the questions that if a standard is applied to one why is the same standard not applied to all in similar circumstances. No controversy there. There’s nothing controversial about someone imputing defamatory stuff to a whole nation, certain nation, as Dylan has done in his interview – it’s simply unacceptable to my standards and it simply goes towards telling or propagating lies. If someone (not meaning you) wants to defend him that’s their privilege or right however, I do not have much time for those who defend by avoiding facts. Thank you for your comment Donald, I am not annoyed at all.
Okay, friend, Ina. 🙂
😀
Bob Dylan ? BLOWING IN THE WIND…Go to Woodstock, du, Sch..se.
😀
Please accept the “Versatile Blogger Award”
Rules are easy. Say 7 thing about YOU, and nominate 15 friends.
Please accept: http://prayingforoneday.wordpress.com/2013/12/06/versatile-blogger-award-4/
Shaun.
ps: If you have this, in Widgets,”Caption” put Awarded x2
Thank you Shaun – will attend to this rule soon. Much, much appreciated!
I agree with therealamericro to try to teach Dylan lesson, and avoid wasting money and time, however, you can take horse to the water but you can’t make him drink. So, therefore, I think it is much better to bring him to the court and teach him, and others as well, to watch their language. I am not pleased to be in the same basket with KKK and Germans Nazis
rb, yes if nothing there will be a lesson learned here by Dylan, if not him then others who may be inclined to freely and maliciously vilify any people.
Stupid. He wasn’t inciting it, he just mentioned part of history. How does mentioning facts make him the bad guy? …Deleted by admin – inappropriate and offensive
jaysus – it’s one thing to mention history and facts but you will find this was not such a case. It would seem you find it inappropriate for people to defend their good name after it has been muddied…
It’s hard to defend a “good name” after this
Exactly, f4fischer
Of all places to find one, there are a couple of stories from the 1936 Berlin Olympics. Now, I’d always been told–probably the Jewish media had a hand in it–that Hitler rudely got up and walked out after the Black American athlete Jesse Owens won a gold medal. That wasn’t true. Here’s the real story–
On reports that Hitler had deliberately avoided acknowledging his victories, and had refused to shake his hand, Owens said at the time:
“Hitler had a certain time to come to the stadium and a certain time to leave.” “It happened he had to leave before the victory ceremony after the 100 meters. But before he left I was on my way to a broadcast and passed near his box. He waved at me and I waved back. I think it was bad taste to criticize the ‘man of the hour’ in another country.”
Albert Speer writes that Hitler reflected upon Owens’s victories with a shrug as African physiques were primitive and stronger than whites. Owens was allowed to travel with and stay in the same hotels in Germany as whites, while at the time African Americans in many parts of the United States had to stay in segregated hotels while traveling. During a New York City ticker-tape parade on Fifth Avenue in his honor, someone threw a paper bag into Owens’ car as it worked its way up Broadway. Thinking it was probably just some cookies, Owens paid it little mind until the parade concluded. When he opened it up, he found the bag contained $10,000 in cash. After the parade, Owens had to ride the freight elevator at the Waldorf-Astoria to reach the reception honoring him. President Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR) never invited Jesse Owens to the White House following his triumphs at the Olympics games. Since 1936 was a presidential-election year, Roosevelt was afraid that he would lose southern votes if he played Kowtow to an African American man. Jesse Owens also publicly endorsed Alf Landon during the upcoming election.
Owens said,
“Hitler didn’t snub me – it was FDR who snubbed me. The president didn’t even send me a telegram.”
Hitler sent Owens a commemorative inscribed cabinet photograph of himself. Honors were not bestowed upon Jesse Owens by either President Franklin D. Roosevelt or his successor Harry S. Truman during their terms. In 1955, President Dwight D. Eisenhower (himself an athlete of note) honored Owens by naming him an “Ambassador of Sports.”
The other one–the one I was originally looking for–when I found the above story, is about two boxers. One a German, and the other a Black American. Max Schmeling and Joe Louis. They fought and Louis won. Interestingly, they became friends and stayed in touch for life. In fact, it was Max Schmeling who paid for Joe Louis’s funeral services.
Forget Bob Dylan. He’s a non-factor. The real problem is the “Croats” – like Srecko Horvat – that perpetuate the lies and continually libel the Croat people. The Croats are the greatest of victims, yet they are perennial losers at the victims game. Heck, Croats don’t even want to play the victims game. Croats just don’t wanna be victims. We’ve had enough of that. Leave the Victims Game to that play it, like Serbs et al. And play it well.
Some things just make you say, wow!
Noam Chomsky is a political fool and a tool used by despots.
@ Donald:
Chomsky argued that the US supported the break up of Yugoslavia, and he used the Propaganda Model to back up his (deeply flawed and factually innacurate) argument(s).
I was floored when in The New Military Humanism (I have to admit, it is one of the most brilliant titles ever) he parroted Milosevic’s racist, genocide-justifying media cliches about Albanians and presented the monstrous and discredited greater Serbian historical narrative as “fact.” Very disappointing.
The problem is that Chomsky’s own Propaganda Model was supported via US policy (at least from Milosevic’s rise and raizing of Croatia in 1991), which supported the unity of Yugoslavia, I pointed out above all of the interests as to how and why that was.
Croatia was a clear victim of the Propaganda Model and its misuse by the powers that be, and the Serbian ultra-nationalist lobby inside the US.
I must state, however, that the US thankfully, due to the tireless efforts of Senators Bob Dole and the late and great Senator Tom Lantos, smartened up and chose the good guys in the end ; – )
I came by to say thank you for following my blog Lady Barefoot Baroness, and discovered your gift for inspiring strong debate which thus educates those who may not be as knowledgeable. And certainly not from a point of perspective of those living the truth, not what the media tells us.
I think your blog is wonderful! ~ BB
Thank you so much BB for your feedback – it’s the passion for truth that drives me, as it does many bloggers. I look forward to your posts
It’s a daunting mission and one I greatly admire. I look forward to a great blog friendship.
Thank you Barefoot Baroness:D – likewise
So sad. Sounds like ignorance talking out of the mouth that did so much good here in the US. Bob? It’s time to retire quietly.
I reckon so, Elyse
Congratulations! I have nominated you for the Sisterhood of the World Award. Please go to the page below for the details! http://talesalongtheway.com/2013/12/12/blog-of-the-year-award-influential-blogger-award-and-sisterhood-of-the-world-award/
Thank you so much Anne, I appreciate and honour your gesture. I’ll attend to the rules soon.
When I saw this in the news I wondered if you would write about it. Im glad to read your post on this dylan event. I wonder what will come of it going forward.
We’ll need to be patient and wait for the French court to bring a decision…most likely a fine + as I understand “charges” have been filed, psychologistmimi.
There are a lot of things that I don’t like that go on here in America, mostly political garbage, and to be honest with you I have never been a fan of Bob Dylan at all either. But, I do believe in free speech, a lot of things some people say I don’t like at all, some things down right tick me off, but people have to have the right to speak their mind as long as they are not making physical threats against someone. I don’t like what Dylan said but if a country is going to really be a free country they have to allow peoples opinions even when we may not like or agree with those opinions. Think about it, everything that you or I say is going to get someone somewhere all mad at us, so, because “those people” don’t like your or my opinion should we be arrested every time we open our mouth or say something?
Oh, I agree with free speech too but I also agree that such freedom is limited by laws that protect us from malicious untruths and vilification. People are sensitive beings and one cannot go about throwing incrimination against people and get away with it – mud sticks. Opinions are opinions but I do believe Dylan’s words and the context and manner of them go beyond opinion … laws of defamation exist to regulate freedom of speech so that it is in fact fair and truthful
“Come gather round people I’ll sing you a song,
why most of my comments are stupid or wrong.”
I never liked Dylan, I found his music, voice, appearance and politics objectionable. I’ll not forgive him for getting the Beatles on dope. But he is still influential and my 15 year old daughter listens to him. But she is a Croat, so maybe I can get her ‘unhooked’ now.
Well Steve Gaunt taste in music is very personal 🙂
There wasn’t a “reply” button on my above comments, so I’ll place it here. Hard to believe that nearly a year has passed since we commented on this Bob Dylan character. I haven’t changed my mind any about free speech or even hate speech — unless someone is advocating killings or violence.
Ironically, that’s why I’ve come to dislike this guy. He is far more complicit in Israel’s crimes against humanity than the great filmmaker, Leni Riefenstahl, ever was for making her Nazi propaganda film (masterpiece), “Triumph of the Will.” I find Leni to be a fascinating person.
My opinion of Neil Young went down the drain, also. He was going to perform in Israel and only cancelled his concert due to the onset of the last “war”. Any reasonable person who looks at the images of the damage done to Israel by Hamas’s “upgraded fireworks,” as one MIT physics professor rightly called them and compares them with the cataclysm inflicted on the Palestinians — with entire city blocks leveled — can only conclude that it was a horrendous war crime, and one of many.
Well, to get to my main point, I find it interesting how different personalities react to controversial figures. I was recently shocked to find out that George Galloway is a huge fan of Dylan’s. Says Dylan is as great as Shakespeare and all of that. He’s even sung a few of Dylan’s songs.
In case you aren’t certain who Galloway is, I’ll remind you. He’s a British PM who is the strongest supporter of Gaza in the world. He, along with Chomsky and Finkelstein, is the most outspoken. (He’s that guy you might have read about where that Israeli in Britain tried to beat him to death on the street.)
I can’t separate the artist from the person like Galloway can. I suppose I wish I could, but I can’t. I’ve always loved Neil Young’s music, and still do. But it’s not the same, knowing that he can write and sing protest songs but doesn’t walk the walk.
By the way, I have — yet again 🙂 — got another home address for my web activities. The last one is still up for anyone to use, but after two months of trying to get active members, I’ve given up on it. People want to write, but they don’t want to learn how to write.
You’ve done a remarkable, and consistent job, with this website. Quite impressive to me because I know how difficult an endeavor like this can be.
I guess I’ve committed to the issues I write about, Donald, just like all but to boot I have energy I don’t myself understand – it surely comes from caring and love about the idea of democracy in a place where communism once reigned 🙂 As to Dylan, Galloway, Young…one finds it hard to understand where some of their “strong” stuff comes from, so I tend to believe it comes from deep inside them, a not so attractive side…