Child victim of Uzdol, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Photo: arhiva-braniteljski-portal.hr
Associated press 16 Sept 1993 (reporter George Jahn)
“The United Nations issued an unusually direct and detailed statement condemning Muslim-led government troops for the massacre, which it called a ”cowardly atrocity.”
The killings took place Tuesday in Kriz, near the village of Uzdol in central Bosnia. Lt. Col. Bill Aikman, a spokesman for U.N. peacekeepers, said a British commander reported seeing at least 35 bodies, mostly of elderly people and including one young girl.
The U.N. statement said 70 to 100 Bosnian government soldiers launched an early morning attack on the hamlet, luring out Croat villagers. Government forces then crept around the Croat positions and attacked the Croat command in the village, killing two Croat soldiers, it said.
”This group then retreated, murdering the remaining population with firearms, knives and axes, and setting fire to some houses,” it said.
———-
The United Nation’s Bosnian command will investigate the slayings, the statement said. Cedric Thornberry, the most senior U.N. civilian in the region, demanded ”speedy and exemplary punishment” for the perpetrators”.
September 14th 1993, Muslim led Bosnia and Herzegovina Army soldiers attacked the Croat villagers of Uzdol. Upon their arrival in the village the infantry killed everybody in sight, and only 100 women, children and elderly people remained in the village. On the following day, the Croatian HVO soldiers entered the village and found 29 mutilated bodies of murdered Croat civilians.
Majority of residential and farm buildings in the district area were destroyed during the shelling of Serbian artillery, and in the clashes between Muslim led Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and HVO (Croatian Defence Council) soldiers.
The following is the list of massacred civilians (with dates
of their birth) from the village of Uzdol:
1. Domin Raic (September 21, 1936);
2. Ivka Raic (April 16, 1934);
3. Zorka Glibo (October 10, 1938);
4. Mato Ljubic (October 6, 1923);
5. Kata Ljubic (September 10, 1948);
6. Kata Perkovic (September 24, 1922);
7. Luca Zelenika (April 25, 1906);
8. Janja Zelenika (August 28, 1931);
9. Dragica Zelenika (April 25, 1934);
10. Ivan Zelenika (June 1, 1930);
11. Ruza Zelenika (April 14, 1931);
12. Jadranka Zelenika (January 8, 1981);
13. Ruza Zelic (December 25, 1943);
14. Marija Zelic (September 12, 1980);
15. Stjepan Zelic (January 2, 1983);
16. Ante Stojanovic (March 5, 1920);
17. Anica Stojanovic (November 4, 1949);
18. Franjo Stojanovic (January 6, 1916);
19. Stanko Raic (May 20, 1927);
20. Lucija Raic (September 26, 1933);
21. Sima Raic (July 6, 1914);
22. Mara Raic (November 26, 1938);
23. Mijo Raic (September 12, 1924);
24. Ivka Raic (April 29, 1921);
25. Serafina Stojanovic (February 12, 1922);
26. Mara Grubesa (elderly, birth date unknown);
27. Martin Ratkic (elderly, birth date unknown);
28. Kata Ratkic (elderly, birth date unknown);
29. Jela Dzalto (elderly, birth date unknown).
May they rest in peace and our love and memory for them never die.
Justice has yet to see all those individuals responsible for these massacres brought to account and punishment. It represents one of many crimes committed by Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims) that have somehow eluded the wrath of justice – hopefully not forever. Ina Vukic, Prof (Zgb); B.A., M.A.Ps. (Syd)
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“Shockingly,” no ICTY or NGO demands that the senior officers that planned and or had command responsibility of those units be held accountable for command responsibility.
The victims were Croats, therefore no investigations, trials or verdicts for the perpetrators were or are necessary.
Sefer Halilovic weaseled out of that one in ICTY as army B&H chief at the time, therealamericro. Hasn’t done much about pursuing those who committed the crime, as far as I can see.
The difference between Gotovina / Markac and Halilovic is that, while G / M gave explicit orders on the application of Geneva Conventions and the Laws of Land Warfare, and during and after the operation the subordinate military police and or civil authorities investigated, prosecuted and punished violators of the law, Halilovic obstructed justice after giving criminal orders.
Funny how GOLJUP, HHO, Centar za Mir i Nenasilje, BaBe, SNV and the other sham NGOs in Croatia were deafeningly and remain deafeningly silent on the issue, while complaining about “imperialism” when the Croatian government encouraged Croatians from B&H, wherever they are, to take part in the census, despite those groups’ own suggestions for Serbs in RS, Serbia and in the West to do the same for Croatia’s censuses and elections.
When it comes to Halilovic, therealamericro, by not doing anything to pursue justice for crimes such this one he still obstructs it, in my view. As to the NGO’s you mention they do not deserve that name – NGO’s – they’re political arms against Croatian interests and have long ago earned my contempt and, I hope of others as well. They would not survive as NGO’s in any proper democracy – they have not even been required to lodge their annual financial statements to the government! Simply outrageous.
Exactly. The same people that scream about transparency are entirely untransparent in their subversive activities openly in cohoots with the Milosevic, Martic, Babic, Hadzic, Perisic, Mrksic, Simatovic and Stanisic Joint Criminal Enterprise participant Savo Strbac and his “NGO” Veritas (of all the names he chose, he chose “truth” in Latin, buhahah!).
There are couple people who have been convicted in BIH courts.I really have no an idea why you keep bringing Halilovic when everybody already knows that he was replaced before then the crime took place,so he was nobody,nobody listened to him etc and it’s exactly why he was’t found responsible for it by ICTY. (NOTE BY ADMIN: THE COMMENTATOR HAS FAILED TO PROVIDE NAMES OF PERSONS HE SAYS WERE CONVICTED FOR THESE MASSACRES, EVEN THOUGH HE WAS ASKED TO PROVIDE THEM. IT IS THEREFORE SAFE TO ASSUME THAT THIS COMMENT has no reflection on Facts and is made in bad faith).
Amir, this article is dedicated to the memory of Uzdol victims of the massacre only and since nobody I know of or have researched knows of any convictions regarding this particular crime and you say there were, could we please have the names of those you say were convicted. If you cannot, then there is no need to explain further that you do not know but decide to comment on serious matter flippantly in order to insult the memory of the victims. And as anyone can appreciate – that would be the reason why your comment would be deleted.
Yes, my love, what we send out returns that light as powerful energy again back is one with the unconditional love, so I wish you a beautiful Monday and everything good for you sending divine blessing you with.I am pleased to have found you on the wide network…The most important item is the health without which there is mostly no longer so good.Sincerely Andrea
Thank you Andrea, warm thoughts coming your way too
I am enthralled by your subject. I am now paying more attention to this crisis now. I commend your passion
Thank you treyzguy
What a horrifying sight!
We need to remind ourselves from time to time I believe gpcox so we don’t lose sight of justice
That child reminds me of the injustice being doing.
So much of it around gpcox. We hope and pray for better days while remembering
September 16, for those who not know, is this year the twentieth (20th) anniversary of the pre-war, wartime and post-war dividers of Bosnia’s most (in)famous agreement, the Muslim-Serbian Agreement, signed by none other than Alija Izetbegovic and Momcilo Krajisnik on behalf of Radovan Karadzic, witnessed by none other than Thorwald Stoltenberg i David Owen.
Uzdol just “happened” to happen the same day, as did the massive all out offensive against all Croatian pockets in C. Bosnia and against Mostar and Stolac. Just “happened” to begin, along with VRS artillery, rocket and mortar fire to support ABiH operations.
Total coincidence. No, really. Seriously. A total coincidence. Totally. T O T A L L Y. Just like the massive ABiH offensive during Operation Medak. Total coincidence. Total. T-O-T-A-L.
No coincidences where Lord Owen is concerned therealamericro – I think and I dare say – very simply at that – he was all about smoothing the way for Serb plan to create Serbian Republic within Bosnia and Herzegovina at whatever cost to the others.
The one signed on may 20 years ago totally proves you wrong again,IT IS CALLED GRAC AGREEMENT’.
What has Grac Agreement got to do with massacre of Croatians by Muslims in Uzdol, Amir Pilipovic?
Amir:
Some “agreement” at Graz, after which the HVO launched a offensives in Posavina, C. Bosnia and in the Neretva Valley Operation June Dawn was launched.
You know “deals” in war are valid and entirely in good faith when fighting and massive strategic terrain is lost immediately following the alleged “deal.”
Thanks for the post Ina. Uzdol is one of dozens of similar crimes (Doljani, Krizancevo Selo, Buhine Kuce, Dusina, …..) committed by MOS or Muslim forces in Bosnia-Hercegovina. More can be found at http://www.hercegbosna.org and all over the net. Sadly, the international press corps ignored most of these crimes because they did not fit into the narrative of ‘bad Serbs and bad Croats’ and ‘good Muslims’ in their reporting. If any of these reporters had the good sense to learn and ask the tough questions they would have realized that Uzdol is a key area. If you take Uzdol and the surrounding villages, the strategic area of Rama/Prozor is in your control. Once again, none of this fit into their ignorant and one could argue ’cause’ narrative. Today, these same journos are still writing the same ill-informed stuff they wrote 20 years ago. Thanks for getting our story out there Ina.
Thank you Veronika and I agree
From Facebook: “Little Jadranka Zelenika, may she rest in peace. This, and Grabovica, still numbs my mind.”
Thereal ,HVO has launched a offensive in Posavina while HV has pulled out over night,How did it go anyways ,they lost in period of 15 days and I am yet to find one HVO member who doesn’t blame Tudman for it.I hope you have red Wiki of Tudman and understood that he was about to make a deal with serbs in 1991 to partition BIH.
Amir – you are a visionary as you claim that understanding what someone seemed to some to be about to make is actually what happened! Get a grip on yourself
Amir, the non-existent Graz “agreement” was May 6, 1992.
The HV/HVO Posavina, C. Bosnia and Neretva Valley offensives followed the next day.
Operation June Dawn, the largest liberation of B&H territory save the August – November Operations in W Bosnia in 1995, started on June 6, 1992 (again, AFTER the non-existant Graz “agreement”).
Posavina fell in September 1992, thanks to the so-called President of B&H not sending a single ABiH or TO reinforcement to Posavina (because he was sending them to already defended and or liberated Travnik, Bugojno, Kakanj, Vares, Vitez, Kiseljak, Mostar, Stolac, and other HVO defended and or liberated territories to dig in their ABiH / TO lines not against the Serbs, but against the HVO) the duration of 1992 despite a 3 to 1 JNA-VRS force ratio with artillery and armor in a 7 to 1 ratio in favor of Serb forces.
FYI more HV soldiers died defending Posavina than in the entire war in Croatia.
Posavina was, thanks to Alija’s scheming with his hornets nest of KOS operatives he surrounded himself with, a strategic defeat for both Croatia and B&H, and the Serbs’ held their lifeline corridor, and the war lasted three more needless years.
That is your Alija’s genius “strategery.”
Your illogical verbal acrobatics have nothing to do with the chronological order of events / order of battle, let alone elementary logic and reason.
Sure ,It was carried out by forces of HOS ,which have been part of ABIH in Hercegovina and it’s the reason Why Blaz was killed.Posavina fell in period of 15 days because it was sold out by Tudman,at least it’s a claim made by HVO or Croats.I invite all the readers to go to youtube and enter ZASTO JE PALA POSAVINA,KAKO JE PALA POSAVINA ETC and witness in person HVO members blaming Tudman for it.Besides General of the 2ND CORE of ABIH was a Croat named Zeljko Knez..i thought Perkovic .Boljkovac,Manolic are croats and that they served proudly in Tudman’s Administration.I guess you will find all HVO members to be JUDAS after watching them on youtube blasting Tudman.Let’s not even mention all the fuel Croats sold to serbs,
Amir – people are allowed to blast Tudjman or anybody in the political scene especially and it’s so easy to do that when the object for blasting is not alive to counter the blasting. People believe what they want to believe and that’s the way it’s always been particularly when it comes to political witch hunts.
You obviously missed the memo on Mesic, Boljkovac, and Manolic being neutralized by Tudman, who kept them, his most dangerous enemies, closer than anyone else to neutralize them and boot them when the time was ripe, which it was, in 1994 after the Washington Agreement.
You obviously did not watch the video links, nor can you comprehend that the chronology of events, i.e. the ORDER OF BATTLE, demolishes all of your fables and fantasies.
The HV lost more men in Posavina than in the entire Croatian war. Posavina was a strategic defeat that Alija ensured because he sent NO reinforcements and didn’t allow Knez to support the massive HV-HVO offensive against the JNA-VRS, as Stipetic, himself points out here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl90oOngKKA, because Alija had other plans.
HOS was a minor force. They never, at any time, ever once exceeded a total of 5,000 men. The HVO had 45,000, and it was the HVO, along with the HV, that planned and executed the a) Defense of 85% of BiH, with some support from HOS, the wanna-be-Poglavnik Dobroslav Paraga’s private political army (of HSP). I take it you support a Croatia to the Drina like Paraga and Kraljevic (see minute 5:15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ3u1GIVDdQ); b) All major offensive operations in 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1995 against the JNA-VRS. Without direct Croatian arming and operational planning, the ABiH would not have a single victory against the VRS under its belt.
As for Paraga, his views on Milosevic’s Kosovo crackdown in the 1980s are a bit, to put it lightly, compromising, here is a tidbit from his letter to the UN and other international organizations from 3.3.1989: …
QUOTE: … Naraslo nezadovoljstvo Srba kao najvećeg naroda u Jugoslaviji prema državi i ideologiji, pokušava se na ovaj način prookrenuti prema Albancima.
…To je olako poigravanje sa vitalnim interesima naših naroda i njihovom budućnošću.
…Ali, niti sve tri do danas predstavljene varijante državnih i partijskih vlasti a to su, na prvom mjestu ukidanje autonomije, na drugom očuvanje kosovske autonomije i na trećem mjestu, priznati kosovskom stanovništvu jednakopravan status u federaciji putem proglašenja Kosova republikom, nisu pravedno rješenje već odgađanje eksplozije građanskog rata.
Proglasiti Kosovo republikom bilo bi opet neprihvatljivo za većinski srpski narod koji smatra Kosovo svojom povijesnom kolijevkom, te bi taj čin proglašenja doživio kao otimačinu svog teritorija i srpskim nacionalnim porazom.
Zatim, bilo bi nužno pod kontrolom Mirovnog vijeća OUN organizirati slobodne izbore i referendum o daljnjem statusu Kosova. Niti bi se time Jugoslavija mogla osjetiti poraženom niti Albanija nekakvom pobjednicom… ENDQUOTE
The crocadile tears for Paraga and Kraljevic by AVNOJ BiH Titoist Unitarists, greater Bosniak nationalists, and Bosniak Islamists regarding both vocal public proponents of a Croatia to the river Drina at a time when Serbia’s propaganda machine, and its Western sympathizers, were trying to paint the war in Croatia and B&H as a war against “Ustasa extremists,” is pathetic, considering the two most lionized were against B&H and for a Croatia to the Drina.
Paraga’s letter on behalf of greater Serbdom cited above should leave no questions as to who he, and his close top collaborators, were really working for.
Operation June Dawn was planned by the late Gen. Janko Bobetko, fyi.
Posavina fell because NO reinforcements were sent by the ABiH, ever, to Posavina, which fell because Petar Stipetic, in defiance of Tudman’s orders, went too far into Serbian lines and had his supply lines slashed by the JNA-VRS forces, who were supported by an entire VRSK Corps.
Tudman never “sold” anything. Alija thought it was wiser to allow the Croats to bleed out against the Serbs in Posavina, C Bosnia and W Hercegovina, so Alija could send in massive amounts of troops to already HVO defended and or liberated territories to dig in not against the Serb lines, but against the Croat lines.
Speaking of Judas, take the words of Muslim and Bosniak HVO members about Alija’s government, and the “Samostalni Bataljun” and its activities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ2SCezOh-E
I was asked to visit this blog and leave a comment,Therealamericro your comment sticks out the most,so let me try to explain something to you,I was a member of HVO and fought the fight in Posavina,Iam also a Croat who has a knowledge of the war ,specifically the Posavina war.We never considered Izetbegovic as our leader and we have never belonged to the ABIH so there for He couldn’t betray us .We did in fact had around 300 hundred HOS members to fight or help us out,there commander was Ante Prkadzin.Anyways I am kind a trying to tell you that HVO from Hercegovina has never sent any help either,We had some strange things going on,like when HV leaving there positions over night without our knowledge.and because of our knowledge and expectations we have always felt as sold out by Tudman.We have never relied on Izetbegovic and I personally believe he couldn’t betray us just for that reason alone.
Robert Marojevic, sorry to do this to you but it must be done to save the readers of this blog from being faced with lies we could have avoided. You comment cannot be taken as containing the truth because you are it seems the same person as the one who has formerly commented, bullied, on this blog under the names of braco p, braco pd and Djerdjelez A – all four of you have the same email address and other verification details which we of course keep private but this detail is something we need to publish here. This blog is about the truth and seeking the truth – and this is one of the unpleasant ones when you try and trick an audience by writing under different pseudonyms trying to leave an impression that several instead of one person are commenting. Such deceit disgusts me but perhaps I should get used to the fact that it actually fits with the morality of those who supported Izetbegovic and the unfair eventuality where Muslims of Bosnia have not yet answered for their horrible, horrible mass war crimes.
Again you demonstrate your political and historical autism Amir.
If Tudman and Milosevic “made a deal” to divide Bosnia in Karadjordjevo in 1991 (March 30, to be exact), why the use of the entire territory of B&H as a staging area for genocidal aggression against Croatia the duration of 1991 through into 1992 (from “RS,” until Dayton), and the savage massacre in Ravno, B&H, of Croatian civilians in October 1991, if the never-existent deal, ever happened.
This myth was first posited by none other than Vojislav Seselj days before the non-existant deal, in KOS-controlled Borba, as Tudman and Milosevic AND Izetbegovic were to take part at the United Nations-D-E-M-A-N-D-E-D discussion at Karadjorjevo; AFTER Seselj made his contradictory statement, which was political posturing as he was insinuating that Milosevic was giving up on a Serbia to Zagreb’s Cathedral, Izetbegovic backed out.
Your illogical acrobatics are amazing, but your insessant regurgitation of the same discredited myths is a psychological case study, as it is not just a bizarre pathology, it is a perverse obsession.
Pathological obsession indeed, therealamericro – now we know at least to a small degree through Amir’s comments what Tudjman was going through
Thereal,Let me correct you one more time,the truth about Karadordevo know only two people ,Tudman and Milosevic and rest of us are trying to make sense of it,Milosevic has died in Hague and is on the record of saying ‘ME AND TUDMAN HAVE MADE A DEAL ABOUT POSAVINA LONG TIME AGO IN KARADORDEVO’.If conversation was about anything else but the war than both of them are stupid idiots for meeting.Tudman is also on the record of saying how Croats should make a deal with serbs about partition of BIH in 1991 and 1997,98.UN has never demanded Karadordevo and serbs have never used entire territory of BIH as staging ground for aggression on Croatia,so can you get your facts strait for ones.You all have red the wiki page of Tudman,you all know it can be edited but none of you did it because you don’t have the truth so there is nothing you can do about it.And if you asked me i would tell you that this is not place for history correction THE WIKI IS.
Exactly Amir – everybody can only guess what happened at Karadjordjevo and I for one do not accept guesswork as truth. As to Wikipedia entries there is no use of correcting or adding to them because there will always be someone else who will edit back especially if they have your points of view. So I for one let Wikipedia be because it is not all and be all.
CIA is about to release there documents about the war,since they just lifted “TOP SECRET’ label from it.And i guarantee you there will be little bit for everybody …
The only people who blame Tudman are the incompetents who disobeyed Tudman’s direct orders.
Here is some critical testimony on the fall of Posavina and the UDBa-KOS mythology created to subvert the war effort: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7GAmriw3wI.
That the ABiH wasn’t too into fighting the JNA-VRS and was more interested in stabbing its Croatian saviors’ in the back is no secret: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYcKV_eSt7s.
Completely agree with you therealamericro – and furthermore, those who disobeyed Tudjman’s direct orders were and are those who set out to spread lies and blacken him. But truth is slowly revealing itself on that – patience, we need – it was not for nothing that last week Tudjman’s speech delivered in Vukovar in late nineties suddenly appeared in a poster in a public in Vukovar… 🙂
LOL’,the non existent Grac agreement was May 6.1992′ You are saying it doesn’t exist but happened on may 6 1992 in same sentence.Why don’t you go to youtube and watch documentary film ‘IZDAJA BOSANSKE POSAVINE’ it’s done by a Croat and most if not all guests are Croats,watch and learn .
So what if it was done by a Croat? That can mean a million things and I hope you do not suggest Amir that all Croats are the same
No I suggest that you are different and have different point of view on the war ,and it’s why i asked you to watch and possibly learn a thing or two from each other,If you have watched the film ,you had a chance to hear Commander of HVO to say ‘I have met Izetbegovic and he has never asked me for anything special,only to make sure that the war between Croats and Muslims doesn’t break out but i did get order from Grude to attack Muslims”.You also had a chance to learn that Grac Agreement existed and was signed by both Boban and Karadzic,a deal in which serbs get corridor or Posavina and Croats get Western Hercegovina.And on the end to be honest thereal and you are either dazed and confused or just live by the code ‘everything goes’Him for bringing Posavina and you for signing off on every single post/comment of his.
Thank you Amir, but I have learned all I need to learn for the truth way before you started commenting on this blog. And I certainly will never believe what someone says in an interview without actual documented and indisputable proof that someone was ordered to do something. I have learned not to trust many a Croat in positions of political power and the first in line here is Stjepan Mesic and those at the end of his tentacles when it comes to political manoeuvrings for personal gain of course. The same goes with when a Muslim or a Bosniak tries to steer the waters to their side and away from reason and bare truth. Every nationality in the world has its abominable individuals and Croatia is no different, hence the need to stick to the real truth not a version of it or a rumour about it…
LMAO,General Stipetic has publicly blamed Tudman/Susak for aggression on BIH(see Latinica:Gojko Susak -lik i djelo)and Zeljko Knez is in the documentary (Izdaja Bosanske Posavine)saying,explains it all in his own words.so i have no a clue why you ask me to watch Stipetic on Knez and why you always bring Tudman’s non supporters as supporters.It’s funny how you always forget to mention Tudman’s adviser LEX PERKOVIC,i mean he did indeed throw him under the bus.Anyways if you can put in one/same sentence ‘The non-existent Grac Agreement was May 6 1992’ don’t you think you are confused.
Amir, one important thing you are omitting – or you are not aware of it – Tudjman ordered that Perkovic and others be removed from office but hey things beyond his control at the time,like those digging his own political grave, did not do as he asked…just be patient and all things will come to light – they usually do whether we want them or not
Well according to witnesses and documents we or at least i know that he was an adviser to Tudman ,Josipovic and Mesic and that during the war he was very close to Miroslav Tudman(who happened to be in charge of HIS)Why don’t you ask Miroslav if he wants him extradited to Germany.I don’t have a problem with Tudman’s choice of people but with with your belief how he has thrown them under the bus,Croats electing Mesic in democratically held elections should tell you a lot,and this refusal to extradite Perkovic another a lot and.Why don’t you research Nevenka and Igor Tudman and see who threw who under the bus.
Oh Amir, I’ll bud in here too, I thought you knew everything but I would suggest you read some of Miroslav Tudjman’s books. As far as electing Mesic for presidency yes that did occur at democratic elections but you have forgotten it seems or do not take into account how voters were primed to do that – includes lies against Tudjman, lies about Homeland War, lies about the diaspora and what not … I’d personally like to forget the ten years from 2000 when Mesic was at the helm and perhaps I myself can but people cannot
Well i agree with you a 100 %,but still don;t understand why blame Bosniaks for Posavina when we all know that overwhelming evidence points to Croats,Why even to try.You either don’t care about the truth or your knowledge is very small.
Oh I care very much about the truth Amir and of course my knowledge is not very small but at the same time it is not all-encompassing as you seem to want everyone to believe it is. If I come across something I need to learn from then there are two ways that learning can go: accept that something as representing real unattached or objective truth or accept is as someone else’s truth but not necessarily the real one.
When war starts the truth is the first casualty and when its over history is revealed for the political well being. But the war continues for those seeking justice as in many places their rights are denied . Politics comes first always over innocent victims. Its also first to start the wars and to heal after
Well said JoeGlocken. thanks although it is absolutely horrible for humanity that suffering must continue because justice fails. Denying justice fills pockets of many, one way or another, that is a reality that we’re slapped with but who knows perhaps our descendants will know better or do better in the fight against that
Funny, not only does Amir “conveniently” forget that Izetbegovic signed an agreement with Momcilo Krajisnik which divided Bosnia and Herzegovina between them (and Mladic’s hordes provided rocket, artillery and mortar support the duration of Bosniak aggression against the Croatian nation in B&H), but he also forgets that, after Izetbegovic offered W Herzegovina to Tudman, twice, once in 1993 and once in 1994, Tudman, who according to Amir “agreed” to “divide” B&H with Milosevic in Karadjordjevo in 1991, and Boban in Graz in 1992 (after which the JNA-VRS was crushed across the Neretva Valley and Central Bosnia) also did the same, Tudman, Boban’s superior, rejected Alija’s offer of W Herzegovina succeeding B&H in both 1993 and 1994.
What kind of an imbecile cannot grasp the contradictory absurdity above? I know of one name….
I forgot to mention that Milosevic’s Air Force tried to assassinate Tudman A F T E R their “deal” in Karadjordjevo.
Some “deal.”
INA,Milosevic is on record of saying ‘ME AND TUDMAN HAVE MADE A DEAL ABOUT POSAVINA LONG TIME AGO IN KARADORDEVO’ so take that to the bank.We also have Tudman expressing his wishes of partitioning BIH with serbs,We have members of his negotiation team to speak and admit Karadordevo was the reality.Tudman was even selling the fuel to serbs while the war was going on,We also know of the HV being in BIH fighting ABIH,We have 5 judgments in that sense .so you will not make mistake by taking Karadordevo to the bank.
So, Amir, could you then tell everyone what that deal was exactly! Otherwise it’s all guesswork and I only bank on sure things, i.e. truth not someone else’s vomit. And please, don’t tell us what someone else said or what someone else interpreted… I am frankly getting irritated by many of your comments and if you think you have found here another avenue to try and blacken Tudjman and Croatia’s independence with your wild shooting you will not succeed.
The person in Tudman’s negotiation team said that his job was to hammer out details of the Karadordevo deal,He also said that Tudman has told him about Karadordevo deal while giving him instructions.on what parts of BIH should belong to Croats and which to serbs.And the deal was exactly to partition BIH,and the Grac was fallow up ,and if you read it you will see what Karadordevo was all about.THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE GUY,NEGOTIATOR SAID.and i am going to go through my files to tell you his name so you can research it for yourself.
Amir – it’s quite interesting that you have written so much about the Karadjordjevo “deal” and yet you need to go through your files and then give the readers the name of the person whose “job was to hammer out details”! One would have thought that the name of that person would have stuck to your brain like super-glue! In any case it sounds to me another example of hearsay – without actual documents with signatures, statements do not mean anything really. So while you’re looking through your files to further the myth of Karadjordjevo deal here’s a piece that goes towards deconstructing it http://www.tudjman.hr/clanci-blog/lucic-sto-se-zapravo-dogodilo-u-karadordevu
Please provide the transcript or recording of that statement by Milosevic, Amir.
Also, you have no clue about military tactics or strategy.
The Posavina corridor was a life and death corridor for the Serbs in both B&H and in the genocidal, ethnically purified of non-Serb fascist tumor para-state they created in Croatia.
The fall of Posavina STRENGTHENED the genocidal Nazi-Fascist “Krajina,” only a total imbecile would even suggest that Tudman “made a deal” for its’ fall when it STRENGTHENED SRAO K, when the total defeat of SRAO K was Tudman’s main war objective.
And if a “deal” was made or a “trade” agreed upon, why all of the fighting in Posavina where the HV lost more troops, both KIA, injured and captured, than in the entire war in Croatia?
The only people that propagate the “Karadjordjevo” myth and or Posavina “sale” fable in Croatia are a) The commander in charge of the Posavina operation, Petar Stipetic, who failed and is guity of deriliction of duty and of failing to follow Tudman’s orders (which were not to overextend the advance so as not to have the supply lines cut in a flanking movement by Serbs, which was exactly what happened) b) Known KOS and UDBa operatives like Mesic, Manolic, Boljkovac, and the Seral Fribune, Novi Prist, Jutarnji Prist, Globotomus, and INTERNacional.
Elementary military logic and reason, as well as casualties and sacrifice, prove your fables, which you spew to defend Alija’s back-stabbing policy of sending NO REINFORCEMENTS THE ENTIRE BATTLE OF POSAVINA to ensure that ABiH troops were sent to already HVO defended and or liberated areas to prepare for the massive offensive against the HVO and Croats who saved Bosniaks from total physical extermination in 1992, to try and create an ethnically pure, mono-religious Bosnjakistan to Neum, and as Halilovic put it, “a little to the north and a little to the south of Neum.”
I’m afraid therealamericro that Amir will come back and say read the ICTY transcripts and you’ll see who said what there – the problem is that it’s all hearsay and we know perjury wasn’t a stranger to those who went all out against Tudjman. So, I have accordingly deleted some of Amir’s comments that perpetuated the same “he said, she said, I think, etc” instead of any actual evidence of Karadjordjevo. Perhaps he will reply with better evidence than hearsay since he says the deal happened only we don’t know what that deal was it could have been on a great many issues since the countries were at war, i.e. Serbia held control of Yugoslav people’s army, and it’s to be expected that there was a need to hold talks
LMAO Hey bro wasn’t it Stipetic you used as a proof of Tudman’s brilliance ,all the sudden he is a juda too,You need to sharpen your knowledge and come back sharp because as of right now you are just a joke.
Well i had to do it because i want to make sure im not accusing wrong people of being judas and because i really care less about Karadordevo…deleted
Amir- when you come up with something more tangible that represents the actual truth rather than who said what, who thought what… you comments will get through … you see, I too don’t want wrong people accused of anything … so until you or anyone provide evidence other than who said what or who thought what I go with people who say it did not happen – it’s like considering someone innocent until proven guilty
The CIA documents you referenced Amir have shown that Izetbegovic did not want a multiethnic BiH but an ethnically pure Bosnjakistan.
Yep, therealamericro, Izetbegovic wanted an islamic Bosnian state as far as I researched the matter too
Sure he did,It’s why he appointed all the Croats Kljujic,Komsic,Knez,Siber,Vikic,Cegar and some serbs like Bogicevic and General Divjak,The easiest way to get Islamic Republic was to use as many Croats on top positions of Government as possible.Not to Mention Paraga ,Mesic,Markovic,Spegelj ,Kraljevic,Sarinic and HOS,We all know that Starcevic/Pavelic have been avid advocates of Islamic republic thus making HOS to take part.
Amir – since you are delving into history prior to 1991 why don’t you delve into Alija Izetbegovic’s declarations for an Islamic State? Why he appointed Croats you ask – shrewd politics I think.
Excerpts: Alan J Kupermann: “The Moral Hazard of Humanitarian Intervention” International Studies Quarterly: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2478.2007.00491.x/abstract
Most Bosnian Muslim officials say they rejected the Belgrade Initiative on two
grounds: the possible risk of becoming second-class citizens in a rump Yugoslavia,
and the desire to seize a fleeting opportunity to establish an independent
Bosnia that Muslims could dominate politically. The Muslims did not want to be
an ethnic minority in a Serb-dominated Yugoslavia when they had the chance to
be the dominant ethnic group in an independent Bosnia. But this Muslim pursuit
of political power created the risk of violence, as Izetbegovic himself
acknowledged in an October 1991 parliamentary address by asking rhetorically:
‘‘Will we accept peace at any price in Bosnia, bend our heads once and for all,
because of peace accept an inferior position for the next 15 years, or shall we
say, we want sovereignty, risking a conflict?’’ (Burg and Shoup 1999, 77)…
The strategy had four components (Hasan Cengic 2000; Mahmutcehajic
2000): First, the Muslims actively lobbied the West to recognize Bosnia’s independence,
to increase their chance of receiving military assistance if Serb forces
attacked. Second, prior to recognition, they strove to avoid using or provoking
violence because it could undercut their image as victims of aggression, necessary
to qualify for humanitarian intervention. Third, once they could achieve recognition,
they planned to declare Yugoslav army troops in the republic a foreign
occupying force, so the international community would compel their withdrawal.
29 Fourth, starting in the second half of 1991, the Muslims clandestinely
imported weapons and established a militia to enable a rudimentary defense
prior to secession…
And as the video shows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu03YS8ayCI.
As we all know, shouting “Allah Akbar” and “Tekbir” is a normal, colloquial thing in both Hercegovina and Bosnia amongst Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats.
A few known Al Qaida operatives, many of whom have since died in other jihads, just “happened” to be around him.
Just “happened” to be. Seriously. Really. Seriously.
It’s nice to see You have finally figured out there are Muslims living in Bosnia,Just to help you out with history ‘They live there since 14 th century” Tudman just happened to let them in Croatia and just happened to let them move to BIH from Croatia,just happened to help them doing so,Don’t worry it just happened…
Amir, your cynicism is atrocious – this is quite uncalled for and I think you should lick your misdirected bitterness and hatred elsewhere. Start your own blog
CIA’Tudman has told to Germans that Bosnia is too big and is willing to share it’
Here you go again, Amir – to whom exactly did Tudjman say that and where can the readers find more information about that again.
Well you are deleting my comments so i really don’t know which one you are pointing to.You can read all about CIA on there website.If i am lying or don’t know what i am talking about or if am wrong what would be a reason for you to delete my comments unless you are ashamed of Tudman and his family,otherwise why hide the truth.
Amir the comments from you deleted are those where you insult individual people associated with this blog and you drop names and say things about them without providing links to check the veracity of what you say. Comments that provide links for one to go to and read further are not deleted, unless they provide further spread of propaganda. This comment of yours should also be deleted because you expect the readers to search where to find on CIA website what you are saying and given the site of that website that is simply unfair to readers when you could simply copy paste the link to the CIA page where you say it says that about Tudjman. So, given this I think that you are nothing but a disrespectful commentator and once again if you cannot locate a link or list where information about what you say can be found it means that what you say could easily be a product of your personal interpretation or view which do not represent the truth unless that truth can be verified. It’s quite simple really. And if you want a venue to insult people and promote defamation please start your own blog
Izetbegovic’s Islamic Republic was heavily debunked,rebuffed in Hague by experts and witnesses ,mostly by Croats and Serbs.You have nothing better to bring up ,nor you have a person with credibility so there for you are forced to bring Alen J Kupermann an assistant professor that deals with Atomic Scientist,When are you going to bring somebody with credibility,or when will mention your fb friend Marko A.H ,he is professor who wrote couple books on the issue plus his mother is a Croat,You should find him more credible.When we trash Tudman on his fb page you are nowhere to be found and yet you find some of his staff useless.
So like you Amir to offend people of credible standing in the world. I wonder what you yourself have contributed to the world besides trashing people because you don’t personally agree with them. Whether Izetbegovic’s Islamic Republic was debunked in the Hague or not does not matter because Hague is/was not all and be all and testimonies of hearsay do not in my view and view of many represent facts but opinion in a great many of cases. Whether you like it or not Kupermann’s works are taught throughout many universities in the world and there is not a single thing he writes that cannot be corroborated from other sources of fact.
No my comments were not rude to anybody,I just named family members of Saint Franjo deleted …
Yes they are often offensive Amir and I cannot allow them and the very cynical way you call Tudjman a “saint” is pathetic and cynical to the extreme and it says quite a bit about your frame of mind. Furthermore bringing someone’s family into comments is quite inappropriate. So I suggest if you like to do that write an article about it and try and get it published, don’t come to this blog to spread your bitterness and hatred – don’t come here with your sweeping statements without providing links or specific sources where matters addressed in those statements can be researched further. Corroborate your comments, give specific references not “go to such and such a website etc.”
Oh I wrote an article and have published it long time ago,I am talking about 1999 and find Dejan’s run to Milosevic as very legit and honest subject for conversation.If you google or Bing CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY and click on there website and then when you get there enter BOSNIA in a search box,Do the same with TRANSCRIPTS OF TUDMAN,and read and make your own judgment,Please read PRIVATIZATION CONTROVERSY.ON TUDMAN’S WIKI,or you can google SARINIC VS MILOSEVIC,Sarinic was CHIEF OF STUFF ,so he should be trusted because he was there done that.
Again, you keep your head in the sand.
Not only did Alija “Tekbir” Izetbegovic NOT want a multiethnic, power-sharing BiH, he never did, and neither did SDA, the party he formed and the party he was head of.
Here is their 1993 meeting video. Alija was a speaker and was present for the entire meeting, fyi.
Memorable quotes: “Taktizirali smo s Hrvate koji su pomagali, prohrvatsku struju eliminirali.” “Cijelovita BiH nije cilj nego sredstvo za ostvaranje Bosnjackih interesa.” “Teritorij je svetinja a more, Neretva i Sr. Bosna strateski cilj.” “Treba nastavit rat, neka traje jihad!” “Granice ce se mjenjati, muslimanska drzava treba biti motiv i cilj.” “Armija BiH je 100% muslimanska.”
Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tekPJMQefU
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUU3_nCppYg
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8Ewixml7HA
Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKRRpztu0mM
Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrHluREmuHk
Part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76kitkYV2jQ
Part 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxbK_rPJOnI
Part 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_-NmAZPW3o
Part 9 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qllAYerckw
Part 10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI5GV6lISSM
Part 11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84_DUnTcQlg
Part 12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzwB7Yc8z0M
Part 13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5yir3glGlY
Part 14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3MXq42Uoiw
Part 15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvBMn1I6YIU
Part 16 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04oWtgTCUJc
Part 17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vggjsgFBOE
Part 18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJHL2hsQa0
Part 19 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1oXrdqY5tE
Part 20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9ZTX84zip8
Part 21 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWb98–ck1Y
Part 22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxg1pOcxBuc
Part 23 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MsHqQQwSCU
Part 24 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiP6URgUgso
Part 25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to0AEoHzvbw
Part 26 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmA7dXYwcMk
You and your fables have been nuked Amir. I doubt M.A. Hoare saw these compromising vids, in which the top leadership of SDA and top intelligence and military operatives openly admit that it was always operating in bad faith with the Croats, that they planned to attack them, and that their goals were an ethnically purified of non-Bosniak Bosniakistan to Neum and “a little north, and a little south,” as “hero” Halilovic stated in his warning order for Operation Neretva 93, which he included in his comical book.
To the Croats out there – anyone know how to download these things? These videos need to be translated asap. I volunteer my time… This should be mailed to every major news organization in the region, Europe and West, and to the Clinton Archives ; – )
YOU L O S E Amir. Always a pleasure to crush you.
Thank you therealamericro, I will attend to ways of translating etc including contacting people who may be in the position to assist. A very worthwhile exercise
“Taktizirali smo s Hrvate” is something Izetbegovic would never say,it’s just not the way we use words,nor we speak that way.Besides you could post only clip of Izetbegovic saying so instead of posting 26 of them and trying to fool your own people. Instead of spending days translating it you could download it from ICTY translated,The only problem with that you will have is countless amount of Croats defending Izetbegovic… DELETED as inappropriate…I bet all major news organisations will waste millions dealing with your stupidity IT ALL WAS USED AND TRANSLATED IN HAGUE AND THERE IS NOTHING TO IT.You need to make the defense of Tudman to be about his not involvement ,no knowledge instead of well he did it but Izetbegovic did too.Well he did it because Izetbegovic was so bad dude.Courts don’t work that way my friend.
Ooooh Amir – do we detect these videos have hit a nerve with you – don’t like it? Well get ready for some truths about Izetbegovic, it’s time. So we’ll see Croats defending Izetbegovic will we – so what! That does not mean he is innocent. And don’t bother asking why part of your comment was deleted because you know – to bring into comments family members of Tudjman or anyone else is simply distasteful, mean, hateful and insulting and will not allow it as these people have not deserved to be treated as you treat them
Sure they did,I remember watching all of them years ago on ICTY tv,remember even ICTY hiring experts to study Izetbegovic’s Islamic Republic and i am very said to tell you that they have concluded it was just a his point of view and nothing extreme,The tapes as you know did’nt help to any Croat,mostly because there is nothing in them that could be used as a proof of something….deleted
Amir – get a grip – they did not show them all in ICTY, I watched proceedings too – can you please give the link to the Judgment where it says that those were just his points of view and nothing extreme – if you cannot that means what you say is purely your interpretation or wishful thinking. But also, even if that was the case it was not in a case against Izetbegovic and if it were be sure that the evidence would be proven differently or treated differently – perhaps at some future time
By the way what is your need to be 3 people at ones and talk to yourself here ,Why can’t you just be Ina.I write in reply Marko .A.H and you come back with M.A.HOARE ,which means that you are usuing couple personalities here,since you know whom i was talking about.
The truth must be unpleasant and yet you are on a mission of proving Izetbegovic was a war criminal… DELETED – offensive and inappropriate
Well Amir, I’m not on that mission, I’m on a mission for the truth and I don’t see why Izetbegovic should be spared from having his Commands being looked at
Well I am trying to let you know all of this time that it was done already and you don’t like outcome of it.You have nothing else but to launch your own truth,which is fine as long as you are being truthful about it… deleted ….
Amir, it was not done already as a case on its own and of course I do not like the outcome and that’s because I believe that the outcome does not encompass all that should be looked at where Izetbegovic is concerned. I can’t be more truthful than that. Please stop bringing children and family members of those we are discussing into your comments, it’ll be deleted every time – a child is not responsible for parent’s deeds and a parent is not responsible for a child’s deeds (child here being an adult).
DELETED as inappropriate …How useless you must felt after reading Tudman’s wiki page,figuring there is nothing you can do,couldn’t beat the truth.It’s why i have provided the Joe ,i know your mood will change for better after reading his hilarious story.
I for one have not yet read the Wiki page on Tudjman nor do I think I will but hey if you think it’s worth it and if it contains untruths I guess Wiki or whoever published the stuff on Wiki page might be in for nasty surprises.
Child is not responsible only if he was a child … DELETED …
Amir – No a child is a child whether under age or whether adult, he/she is still a child of that parent and a parent or a child are all distinct individuals in the eyes of the law and humanity and they cannot be held responsible for what the other does nor can you bring up one because you don’t like the other or like them – everyone answers for themselves and if you want to accuse someone of something then do that without associating them with their parent or child. Write stuff and get it published and if you don’t succeed getting it published perhaps you’ll risk your own self and be exposed to a lawsuit for defamation etc and start your on newspaper, newsletter or web portal where you can do as you please.
Well i know,i am just trying to say it’s not very smart idea to let them run wild,Anyways it kind a makes your point to sound very naive and weird,It ‘s not like somebody caught them smoking it’s more like they have been robbing Croatia and it’s people.
Amir, we all know there has been a great deal of theft and corruption throughout former Yugoslav states (Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Macvedonia…), Croatia isn’t immune so I do not know what you’re on about and why on this post dedicated to the memory of victims of massacres. You cannot point a finger at any individual for thieving unless he/she has been proven beyond reasonable doubt, in a court of law with all its due process including Appeal, to have robbed.
His wiki pretty much only says,He was convicted for JCE,was in full control of HVO,ordered and covered war crimes in Ahmici ,robbed Croatia and its people and i guess those people at wiki have provided links to it,so they will no in for nasty surprise ,I think you will have to take it up with ICTY.
Amir, much of Wiki is BS especially in what you say that he robbed his the country and people and if you read carefully you will see that the article has notations like “citations needed” + no proof etc. In any case perhaps someone will take up the issue with Wiki and the contributor of the article and see what can be done legally and perhaps the writer be punished as is fit according to law. There are also many other links possible (not just the ones used) and if the writer went that way perhaps the article would end up with a different flavour. There are nasty surprises in the article where for instance “citation needed” link takes you nowhere! So how can a credible piece as you consider Wiki do such things – I know how: “I will just write what I think or what I heard and provide a verification link that leads to nowhere hoping no one will really notice!” Eh, what garbage. You stick to your Wiki, most people I know who are educated, objective etc steer away from it as from a plague.
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I like how everyone’s eyes and ears are lying to them with the videos, according to Amir.
Judging from the reaction these videos need to be translated a.s.a.p.
Yes therealamericro time is often not on our side when it comes having enough for translations while needing to do other work etc, but hopefully soon at least some and then all – have the task on my mind and contacts to make
Well I am trying to tell you that all of them have been uploaded by a Bosniak and have been translated,so i am really trying to help you out.What is the point of saying these videos need to be translated a.s.a.p ,just get on it and deliver it to the courts in Hague afterwords.
Amir – you’re not trying hard enough to help – where are the links to the uploaded and translated videos you talk about – ah don’t worry I suspect they don’t exist for the public to see so we’ll just press on with what needs to be done
There are no links,all you need to do is to go to ICTY youtube channel and find it,It sounds that none of you has time to do so nor is willing and to be honest with you there is nothing incriminating in them,As i said before it was uploaded by a Bosniak and he wouldn’t upload any videos that don’t support his point of view.You should most likely watch all of them to make sure you don’t have smoking gun.I honestly have no an idea what you would achieve even if it was translated,they are there for years and all the sudden you start believing you have came across of very important material.The reason for Praljak’s trial lasting 7,8 years is really simple He played all the tapes and everything Izetbegovic ever said regardless if it was positive or in negative sense.BESIDES MY REACTION TO THEM THE TAPES IS LMAO,So to be honest if you are going to do it based on my reaction ,well good luck to you,if i thought it was incriminating i would personally ask a guy to pull them down.
Amir, Amir, settle down, there’s time for everything and honestly what you might think is not what others might think… what are you afraid of? You keep mentioning Praljak… well Praljak et al case is not finished yet there is still an Appeal process to be had so timing just might be perfect for all sorts of things… so what you think is really not important except to you … and you obviously think you can play God/Allah when you say “if it was incriminating I would personally ask a guy to pull them down” – why? Why would anyone but a dishonest person pull down evidence that points to wrong doing…
Well, Amir, you seem like one very sick dude – delusions of grandeur come to mind. Absolutely disgusting that you say LMAO at those tapes, but then those who attacked the World Trade Center on 9/11 probably LTAO too. Just as well much of the world knows better
I would ask him to pull it down to make you pay good money for ,and i am not afraid of anything specially the tapes that have been played in Hague and as i said before there is nothing incriminating in them … Deleted…
Amir – since you take yourself to be clever so much go and do a few lessons in law. If material about a public figure, a political figure is available and in it there are matters of public interest such as indicating that that person has engaged possibly in criminal activity then everyone has an absolute right to publish that material because the public has the right to know. So you and your friend would need to pay quite a bit to lose your case in trying to stop someone publishing material of public interest. So it would be your friend who would pay good money for court costs in attempting to get an injunction to stop publication of material which represents facts and are of public interest and certainly anything is of public interest when it comes to Izetbegovic (of course not to you because you’d like to stop anything that might show him in a different light to the one you’re trying to point out)…
I am glad the world knows better,would be good for you to learn a thing or two from world and stop drawing weird and naive parallels I think you should watch the tapes first and then comment after you realize there is nothing important in them.Wake up the song is over.
Amir – go and talk to your kids if you got some, there are only adults here who actually can think for themselves; your attempts at belittling others are atrocious. You are a bully and this school yard is well immune to bullies
I don.t know in which lala-land you live but know for sure that in every democratic country author of the tape profits and is not legally required to provide you with the copy.Also YOUTUBE is not responsible for the content of it and so on.Then other thing you miss is the fact that he is Citizen of another country and that other country may have different laws,If we applied your no knowledge of the law we could argue that publishing it isn’t in the interest of people of BIH.I have never in my entire life tried to paint Izetbegovic as a hero.Why don’y you get serious and start being reasonable and figure out the fact .you have no a clue about law otherwise you would be little bit more supportive of it and the way it works.but one think you would do for sure is ‘You would stop fishing because it’s all you do so far’.
Amir, no fishing here and no ignorance about the law of any kind here. The only ignorance and narrow-mindedness comes from your quarters.
Just you keep fishing in clean waters and hope it will come to you,You never know ,more evidence could come your way or Evidence to Nothing.
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No Amir, nothing incriminating at all. Nothing at all.
“Taktizirali smo s Hrvate koji su pomagali, prohrvatsku struju eliminirali.” “Cijelovita BiH nije cilj nego sredstvo za ostvaranje Bosnjackih interesa.” “Teritorij je svetinja a more, Neretva i Sr. Bosna strateski cilj.” “Treba nastavit rat, neka traje jihad!” “Granice ce se mjenjati, muslimanska drzava treba biti motiv i cilj.” “Armija BiH je 100% muslimanska.”
Wow you should send those tapes to ICTY asap,because you have found smoking gun.Try to decode it before sending because saying isn’t war crime ,doing is.
So, in closing, everyone at the SDA meeting was either talking about dividing Bosnia Hercegovina or applauding hysterically, those who were talking about that and attacking the Croats who saved the Bosniaks and B&H from physical extermination.
Yea i get it now ,they are criminals because they happened to be applauding hysterically and talking.”was either” tells me that you have actually never watched the tapes and have no an idea of what the hell you are talking about.Try to get rid of EITHER when you accuse somebody of war crimes.
Amir, YOU obviously did not watch and listen to the tapes.
; – )
This really put a whole new complexion on the Praljak et. al. railroading at the so-called ICTY.
QUOTE: WE ARE FRANKLY APPALLED BY THE THRICE-REPEATED CLAIM IN REF A THAT THE EVENTS IN AND AROUND PROZOR OVER 6 WEEKS AGO CONSTITUTE HARD EVIDENCE OF PAST AND LIKELY FUTURE CROATIAN ETHNIC CLEANSING IN BOSNIA. FROM A POLICY STANDPOINT, THIS PERSISTENT ALLEGATION IS DANGEROUSLY DISTRACTING. AND PLAINLY INACCURATE IN FACT.
BASED ON THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO US, IT IS THE CONCLUSION OF ALL INTERESTED ELEMENTS OF THIS EMBASSY THAT CROATIAN FORCES IN BOSNIA HAVE NOT ENGAGED IN ETHNIC CLEANSING — EITHER AS A MATTER OF POLICY DIRECTED BY SENIOR LEADERS OR AS A WIDESPREAD PRACTICE ON THE GROUND…
CULPABILITY FOR THE EVENTS IN NOVI TRAVNIK AND PROZOR IN MID-OCTOBER IS DISPUTED…
NOTWITHSTANDING WHO IS MORE GUILTY FOR THIS BOUT OF CROATIAN/MUSLIM MADNESS, BOTH SIDES ARE PAINFULLY AWARE THAT IT CONTRIBUTED DIRECTLY TO THE FALL OF JAJCE. ..
IT IS TO SAY, HOWEVER, THAT BY NO REASONABLE STRETCH OF MIND OR LANGUAGE DOES “PROZOR” CONSTITUTE EVIDENCE OF CROATIAN ETHNIC CLEANSING, LET ALONE A LIKELIHOOD OF “CONTINUED” CROATIAN ETHNIC CLEANSING. ..
THE PERVERSE IRONY IN THIS TIRESOME CHARGE IS EVIDENT IN WHAT UNHCR SPECIAL ENVOY MENDILUCE TOLD EUR/EE DIRECTOR HABIB NOV 20. MENDILUCE OBSERVED THAT SOME 350,000 MUSLIMS ARE NOW LIVING OR SHELTERING IN CROATIAN-DEFENDED B-H (IN ADDITION TO THE OVER 350,000 B-H MUSLIM REFUGEES IN CROATIA)
MENDILUCE NOTED THAT ONE OF THE KEY PROBLEMS WITH THE BOSNIAN CROATS WAS THEIR APPARENT DETERMINATION TO KEEP OUT THE VAST NUMBER OF SERB-GENERATED MUSLIM REFUGEES SEEKING TO FLEE DISPUTED OR B-H GOV’T-DEFENDED TERRITORY FOR THE RELATIVE SECURITY OF BOSNIAN CROAT-DEFENDED TURF. … endquote
State Dept. Cable entitled: “The Ugly Virus Of Moral Symmetry -WHO IS DOING THE “ETHNIC CLEANSING” IN B-H?” 3.12.1992.
Especially when the Stalinist “case” against Praljak et. al. hinges on the “ethnic cleansing” of Prozor by Croats being the “start” of the MU-CRO war in B&H.
hr1u00 on Forum.hr put together a fantastic synopsis of the real aggressors in Prozor, so I will quote hr1u00’s entire post here:
E ajmo sad na ono označeno crveno a to je “zapovjednik općinskog štaba obrane – Prozor”.
Njegovo ime je Muharem Šabić i smjenjen je od strane vrha armije zbog grešaka u vođenju ABiH tokom sukoba, što je na neki način i priznanje odgovornosti ABiH za sukob i izbubljenu bitku koju su dugo pripremali !
E sad kronologija priprema ABiH u Prozoru za sukob, što je očito dio šireg plana sudeći po koordiniranosti sa Beogradom.
01.06.1992.
Muharem Šabić, glavni zapovjednik “Štaba Teritorijalne odbrane opštine Prozor”, potpisuje dokument pod brojem: 1-01-1/92 s naznakom “-STROGO POV-“, a pod imenom “PLAN ODBRANE OPŠTINE PROZOR” u kojemu između ostalog stoji: ‘Plan odbrane opštine Prozor, zbog situacije na rubnom području opština Prozor i Kupres, kao i situacije unutar same opštine Prozor, ima dvije varijante:
Prva je PLAN “ELIF”, koji se primjenjuje u sadejstvu sa jedinicama – formacijama HVO i to po priloženom dokumentu “Alfa”.
Druga varijanta je PLAN “BE”, koji se primjenjuje samostalno ili u sadejstvu sa jedinicama TO susjednih Opština (G. Vakuf, Konjic i Jablanica), a po priloženom dokumentu “Beta”.’
U spomenutom dokumentu “Beta” stoji: ‘Uspostaviti sve vidove veza (putne, informativne, kurirske i sl.) sa Štabovima opština: G. Vakuf, Konjic, Jablanica i drugima. Formacije TO Prozor povezati sa formacijama gore navedenih opština. Uz dobro izvršenu procjenu moći neprijateljskih snaga djelovait i samostalno.’
15.06.1992.
Zapovjednik štaba teritorijalne obrane općine Prozor, Muharem Šabić, na temelju točke 1. Plana rada broj 1-01-1/92 a u svezi s primjenom opcije “BE” sukladno zapovjedi ‘štaba teritorijalne odbrane Republike Bosne i Hercegovine’ broj 02/313-1/92 od 26.05.1992. godine donosi, pod naznakom “NAREDBA BR-11/92 STR.POV.”, dokument broj 1-01-11/92 kojim ‘naređuje’ formiranje prve dobrovoljčke čete TO Prozor a za njenog zapovjednika određuje Saliha Ruvića, rođenog 1940., iz Prozora, po činu ‘kapetan’ I klase. Zapovjedniku navedene ‘dobrovoljačke čete’ se nalaže žurno priključivanje i stavljanje pod zapovjedništvo ‘operativnoj grupi TG-1’ u Tarčinu (općina Hadžići).
18.06.1992.
Zapovjednik štaba teritorijalne obrane općine Prozor, Muharem Šabić, na temelju točke 1. Plana rada broj 1-01-1/92 a u svezi s primjenom opcije “BE” u ime ‘štaba teritorijalne odbrane opštine Prozor’ donosi, pod naznakom “NAREDBA broj:12/92 STROGO.POV.”, dokument broj 1-01-12/92 kojim poništava svoju odluku o upućivanju ‘prve dobrovoljačke čete TO Prozor’ u Tarčin (općina Hadžići) i stavljanju pod zapovjedništvo ‘operativne grupe TG-1’, već se nalaže da ‘prva dobrovoljačka četa TO Prozor’ krene 16.06.1992. u Konjic te da se tamo stavi pod zapovjedništvo bataljuna “GAJRET”.
24.06.1992.
Zapovjednik štaba teritorijalne obrane općine Prozor, Muharem Šabić, na temelju točke 1. Plana rada, te dokumenta “Beta” ‘Štaba TO-e, opštine Prozor’, a u svezi formiranjem postrojba, kao i upotrebi istih donosi, pod naznakom “NAREDBA broj:21/92 STROGO.POV.”, dokument broj 1-01-21/92 odluku o formiranju ‘voda od 15 pripadnika TO-e’ za čijeg zapovjednika imenuje Esada Hadjića, rođenog 1958. godine, iz Prozora. ‘Naredbom’ se nalaže ‘komandiru voda’ da se uputi u Konjic i stavi pod zapovjedništvo ‘komande TO Konjic’ u svrhu ‘obezbeđivanje punktova u gradu, te obezbeđivanje samog grada’
29.08.1992.
U gradu Prozoru je pod predsjedanjem Muharema Šabića održan sastanak predstavnika Muslimana Općinskog štaba obrane Prozor na kojem su doneseni određeni zaključci i zadaci rada općinskih postrojbi Armije BiH za naredni period. Ovim činom “Opštinski Štab obrane Prozor” je prouzročio tragične posljedice, obzirom da je od trenutka donešenja navedenih zaključaka i zadataka došlo do raskola u dotadašnjoj zajedničkoj obrani prostora općine Prozor od srpske agresije i do stvaranja ključnih pretpostavki za provedbu plana “BE” tj. do oružanog napada postrojbi Armije BiH na Hrvate općine Prozor i nasilnog preuzimanje vlasti.
21.10.1992.
U kući Zibe Kormana u selu Blace (općina Rama/Prozor) je održan sastanak “Štaba Teritorijalone odbrane opštine Prozor” (prvobitni naziv Armije BiH) sa zapovjednicima postrojbi Armije BiH susjednih općina. Sastanakom je predsjedavao Mustafa Hero, načelnik štaba TO Prozor, a zapisnik vodio Alija Emrić. Mustafa Hero je između ostalog, govorio nazočnima kako će u petak 23.10.1992. doći do sukoba u gradu Prozoru i da će ‘čaršijom vladati Muslimani’, te da je dogovorena pomoć u ljudstvu koja će doći iz Gornjeg Vakufa (oko 1000) i Konjica (oko 500). Tijekom sastanka je dogovoreno da se 23.10.1992., u vrijeme održavanja dogovorenog sastanka zapovjedništava HVO-a i TO-a općine Prozor, otpočne s provođenjem tajnog plana “BE” razrađenog u dokumentu “BETA”. Podjeljene su i zone napada i zauzimanja određenih prostora općina Prozor pa su tako pripadnici Armije BiH iz sela Pridvorci (općina G. Vakuf) zaduženi za prostor Menjik, oni iz sela Voljevac i Boljkovac (općina G. Vakuf) za prostor Crnog Vrha i Goline, oni iz grada Gornjeg Vakufa za prostor prijevoja Makljen, oni iz prozorskih sela Here, Kute i Šćipe za prostor Uzdola i Jurića, oni iz prozorskog sela Kranjčići za prostor Donje Vasti, oni iz prozorskog sela Crni Most za prostor Perića i Kranjčiće, a oni iz Prozora te iz sela Lug, Lapsunj i Varvara za prostor grada Prozora.
22.10.1992.
23.10.1992.
Počeli su oružani sukobi između pripadnika Armije BiH i pripadnika HVO-a u samom gradu. Nakon prestanka sukoba (25.10.1993.) veći dio općine Prozor je pod kontrolom pripadnika HVO-a. Sam sukob je eskalirao nakon što su pripadnici Armije BiH, u blizini sela Dobrašin, iz zasjede ubili četiri pripadnika HVO-a i onemogućili prolaz snagama HVO-a prema gradu Jajce koje je doživljavalo vrhunac oružanih napada srpskih snaga.
A 2.rujna 1992. Muharem Šabić preko Splita traži strahovito veliko pojačanje u naoružavanju za TO Prozor – EVO !
Ovo je jedna zaokružena priča o lažnom prikazivanju sukoba u Prozoru što je eto rezultiralo i da se tako navodi i u nepravomoćnoj presudi.
Istina je da se radilo o prvom koraku u ostvarenju muslimanskog strateškog plana za osvajanje teritorija i izazivanje raskola sa hrvatima , a plan je razrađen u kuhinji KOS-a, dok je ABiH bila prepuna kadrova KOS-a koji su očito ostali na vezi sa centralom.
Multiethnic ABiH plays soccer with a head: http://www.hercegbosna.org/eng/news/bih/video-bosnian-muslim-army-soldiers-play-soccer-with-the-head-of-a-9332.html
U.S. Army Lt. Col. Dr. Charles Schrader, Professor of Military History at the U.S. Army War College and West Point, on greater Bosniak aggression with the sole purpose to divide B&H with the Serbs amongst themselves and exterminate and or at least push the Croats into the sea:
Alija Izetbegovic orchestrated the ethnic cleansing of Croats from Central Bosnia
(interview with the «Slobodna Dalmacija» newspaper on the 14/09/2003)
My book contains detailed evidence of plans to ethnically cleanse Croats from the Lasva Valley, using the timing of attacks, positioning and military plans of the Muslim forces as proof. After the fall of Jajce, the Muslim leadership launched a military campaign against the Croats of Central Bosnia.
The book “The Muslim-Croat Civil War in Central Bosnia”, by the author dr. Charles Reginald Shrader has generated a great deal of interest, primarily among the Croats of Central Bosnia. It aims to dispel the generally propagated “fact” about the Croat aggression against the Muslims, and it is the reason behind our interview with dr. Shrader.
SD: “In certain sections of your book there is clear disagreement with some of the thesis presented by the Blaškic defence team. You dispute some of the key arguments put forward by the prosecution team, such as the existence of a Croatian plan to ethnically cleanse the Lašva Valley of Muslims. How do you plan to help Blaškic’s case when his defence team has clearly gone down a different path?”
Shrader: “The aim of my book is not to clear anyone of any wrongdoing, whether that may be Blaškic or someone else. I have only tried to establish what really took place in the Lašva Valley from 1992 to 1994. Blaškic’s defence team had formulated a defence strategy at an earlier time, when much less was known about the events of the Muslim-Croat war.
The power of the Muslim propaganda machinery was quite substantial and it aimed to portray the Muslims as «completely innocent victims of Serbs as well as Croats». Nobody wanted to show the complete picture and to attempt to explain the underlying reasons behind some of the events. The journalists that wrote about this conflict followed the official Muslim propaganda line, and secondly they were not in the position to see the complete picture.»
The eager prosecutors
The prosecutors at the Hague ICTY have in a way accepted much of the official Muslim propaganda at face value, and despite a clear lack of logic pursued the path of least resistance. They are portraying the events of 1992-1994 as an attempt by the Croats to take control of Central Bosnia. International politics have also played a dark role in all this in terms of the appearance of some of the indictments at the Hague. I’m still not quite clear why the ICTY prosecutors are so eager and expeditive as far as indictments for Croats are concerned, when they continue to ignore Muslim war crimes and why they aren’t showing great desire in speeding up the search and bringing to justice of the Serb war criminals.
Once we take all those circumstances into account, perhaps the strategy chosen by the defence team does not look so surprising. Had they understood the wider context of the conflict they could have chosen a different strategy of defence, based on the following premises:
Firstly, war crimes did take place, but occured in the context of defensive operations undertaken by the Bosnian Croat forces against the planned Muslim aggression. Secondly, Blaškic and his people acted reactively and in self-defence and not in-line with some mythical plan of Croat aggression. And thirdly, the reality of command and control in the Bosnian Croat Forces (HVO) and the Bosnian Muslim Army (ABiH), during that time meant that no officer, independent of their desire to do so, could prevent (and sometimes not even discipline after the event) the crimes of those they were in command of. Why and when did the Muslim leadership in Sarajevo decide to enter into conflict and cleanse the Lašva Valley of Croats? As I have outlined in my book, it is my belief that the Muslim leadership decided to do so after the fall of Jajce in October of 1992. In order to gauge the Croatian response and possible reactions from the UN, they executed a trial attack in January of 1993, followed by an all out attack in April of 1993. I think that the main reason why the Muslim leadership wanted to gain control over Central Bosnia was because of the great problem with the thousands of Muslim refugees from territories taken by Serbs and the confusion in dealing with such a great number of people.
The river of refugees
Because they were too weak to wrest territory away from the Serbs, they felt strong enough, especially after arming a large number of military age refugees, to attack the Croat enclaves in Central Bosnia and force them into retreating towards Hercegovina or Croatia. The newly captured territory would then be free for the Muslim refugees. My book contains detailed evidence of plans to ethnically cleanse Croats from the Lasva Valley, using the timing of attacks, positioning and military plans of the Muslim forces as proof.
SD: «Where did the Muslim leadership plan to resettle the Muslim refugees?»
Shrader: «The plan of the Muslim leadership was to colonise entire Central Bosnia, with particular emphasis on the regions around Kiseljak and the Lašva Valley.
SD: «Which military installations and munitions factories did the Muslims wish to put under their control and why?»
Shrader: «All military installations and factories on the periphery of the Lašva Valley (like the ones in Zenica, Konjic, Bugojno and elsewhere) by 1992 were already in Muslim hands. The factories in Travnik and Novi Travnik were also in Muslim hands, but they were not in control of the most important one – «Slobodan Princip Seljo» in Vitez. It was especially valuable and strategically important because it was the only source of military explosives, and the other factories in Muslim hands heavily depended on it for their production. That is why taking control of this explosives factory was one of the most important aims of the Muslim attack.
Dien Bien Phu
SD: «Your book makes a comparison between a well known Vietnam battle and what took place in the Lašva Valley?
Shrader: «Yes, I made a comparison between the Croats surrounded by Muslim forces in the Lašva Valley with the tactical situation faced by the French forces in the village of Dien Bien Phu in 1954, during the battle studied by all military historians and analysts, when they were surrounded by far more numerous Vietnamese troops that held all the surrounding hills. It is a good comparison for anyone not well acquanited with the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in order to understand the situation faced by the Croats in the Lašva Valley. Of course, there are two very important differences. Firstly, unlike the French, the Croats were defending their own homes, and secondly, the succeeded in doing so.
SD: «In your time spent studying this particular conflict, have you encountered any evidence of presence of the regular Croatian army in the Lašva Valley?
Shrader: «Throughout all of the time spent researching, I have not come across even a single verifiable fact which would suggest that the regular Croatian army was assisting the HVO in Central Bosnia. Despite many, obviously false, reports from that time, the officers of the British UNPROFOR stationed in the Lašva Valley all came to the same conclusion – there were no regular Croatian army forces in the Lašva Valley. Of course, it is understandable that Croatia assisted Bosnian Croats with finances, logistics, politically and that it even sent some units to Herzegovina. But Croatia never sent any of its troops, not even military advisers to the Lašva Valley, I can certainly say that.
SD: «How do you descrive the discrepancy between the «accepted truth» about the nature of the conflict between the Muslims and the Croats and what really took place?
Shrader: «As I tried to explain in my book, the leadership of Bosnia and Herzegovina under the control of the Muslims had several instruments at their disposal which were used as a fantastic propaganda machine which very rapidly convinced the world into believing the myth about the «innocent Muslims who were attacked by bloodthirsty Serbs and calculating Croats».
The journalists who were regularly visiting Bosnia and Herzegovina, were regularly being served their «full dose» of such propaganda, and since they were unable to personally observe events on the ground, they began to repeat that thesis and such myths. Even the UN and EU forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina often had an unclear picture of the overall situation and often came to the wrong conclusions which heavily relied on information supplied by the government in Sarajevo or information given by personal translators and guides who were mainly Muslim. It is clear that the actual and correct picture about the events that took place cannot be formed on propaganda stories and personal views of several journalists or observers, but it is necessary to analyse all available sources and materials. That is the only way to get an accurate assessment on what really took place.
SD: «Is the reason for such beliefs due to certain political interests or the lack of available information about this conflict?»
Shrader: «Both. Lack of information, or as is more often the case, the unwillingness to check all available information, when combined with certain political interests, heavily influence the view of the conflict, most often at the expense of the Bosnian Croats, who are at the end of the day, a small minority in Bosnia and Herzegovina and can thus easily be ignored by those in power interested in the «big picture» and the forcing of personal interests.
Secret services
SD: «How do you explain the fact that the ICTY has raised 15 indictments in total against the Croats for war crimes in the Lašva Valley, and that there have been no indictments against the Muslims for war crimes in the same area?»
Shrader: «Several key Muslim war criminals have finally been indicted, but the opinion expressed by your question is widely held. That is also one of the biggest mysteries for me, why there aren’t more indictments for war crimes committed against the Croats in the Lašva Valley». I think the ICTY is in no hurry to pursue such indictments against the Muslims for their crimes committed in Central Bosnia from 1992 to 1994 because of certain political reasons. Some European countries, for example, have significant minority Muslim populations and it is possible they do not wish to pressure the ICTY in order not to create any problems back home.
Besides that, the UK and France have traditionally had, ever since WW1, very good relations with the Serbs. To me as an American it is extremely strange that «ancient history» can be a basis for political moves in the 21st century, but judging by everything, it still is. I think that Croatia has put in a lot of effort to become a successful and modern European country, but its efforts and successes have often been ignored and it has unjustly been allocated a larger than required share of blame for the conflicts in the 1990’s.
My contacts with the ICTY have been brief, but I was terrified to discover the existence of «politically motivated» indictments, with procedural rules that favour the prosecution much more than the defence teams, and which wouldn’t for a minute be tolerated in American courts and the trust placed by the prosecution in documents and claims provided by the Muslim secret services.
Interviewed by Zvonimir CILIC
My friend the best witness to your point of you is Joe Tripician ,He even wrote a book to that effect so i really have no an idea on why none of you use him as legit .He even has spent years researching Balkans,interviewing witnesses for the book.
Is that the same Joe Tripican that ended up in Federal prison?
I don’t know that ,but do know he wrote a book ‘BALKANIZED AT SUNRISE’ I have read it and can tell you the book is great,he did years of research of the Balkans ,the war and the people and mostly supports Croat point of view .I think he even wrote official biography of Tudman,at least i know he was hired to do so by Cro-Government.I mean reading his book will explain to you a lot.
Thank you for remembering, and bringing this forward so that the rest of the world is aware, and will not forget. We cannot repeat this.
Thank you Theresa for caring. God bless
Justicia!
Yes Ruben – justice!
Reblogged this on Croatia, the War, and the Future and commented:
Lest we forget!
Da ne zaboravimo NIKADA!
I cannot say too many times how much I appreciate your blog, Ina. I have only a thimbleful of knowledge about Croatia’s history of the last hundred years, and I always learn a lot from every single one of your posts (and the comments). Thank you for sharing your knowledge, your research, your time, and your passion.
Thank you Maryann. Much appreciate your feedback
Reblogged this on By the Mighty Mumford and commented:
WE MUST REMEMBER—UNTIL THE CRIME IS PAID!