Insidious Peddling of the Myth of Persecution of Serbs

Sarajevo Markale Market victims/ Photo: www.srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com

Sarajevo Markale Market victims/ Photo: http://www.srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com

On 7 December 2012 the New York Times’ (NYT) Opinion section published an article by David Harland titled “ Selective Justice for the Balkans” in which Harland wants the public to think that the Serb victims of the 1990’s war in the former Yugoslavia are unfairly treated, ignored by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia in the Hague because the ICTY prefers the “friends of the West”. This is the same David Harland who was behind the myth that “ it was unclear who fired the shells” at Sarajevo Markale 2 market on 28 August 1995 which resulted in a massacre of civilians.
There was no doubt that Serbs fired the shells but Harland thought it best not to point the finger at Serbs in order to avoid Serbs being alerted to a possible NATO Strike (!).
(The first Markale Massacre occurred on February 5 1994 when 68 people were killed and 144 wounded in Sarajevo. The second Markale Massacre occurred on August 28, 1995 when a mortar shell killed 37 and wounded 90 people.)
In his “Selective Justice for the Balkans” Harland is at it again!
Creating and/or peddling another myth to protect the Serbs who waged a horrid aggression in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.
He says: “Altogether, almost all of the West’s friends have been acquitted; almost all of the Serbs have been found guilty. These results do not reflect the balance of crimes committed on the ground”.

If anyone is selective it is David Harland. That is what his article in New York Times represents.

Friedrich Nietzsche once said: “Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torment of man”. The Italian proverb “live in hope and die in despair” would lead us to believe that while we happily may live in hope that things will change for the better, unless we actively contribute to realising our hopes, we may die in despair, indeed.

For just over one week I have lived in hope that New York Times would publish my response to David Harland’s article. This was not to be and there was no way I was going to die in despair – tormented by Harland’s crafty bias that purports to create or feed the insidious myth of persecution of Serbs. So I’m publishing here my reaction sent to NYT.

The write-up by David Harland, entitled “Selective Justice for the Balkans”, which resembles more a cheap Serb propaganda flyer than an article, published New York Times OP-ED on 7 December 2012 is truly disturbing especially as Mr Harland is the executive director of Center for Humanitarian Dialogue. A dialogue requires two sides and Mr Harland failed miserably in presenting many facts that are pertinent to his story.
He omits to point out who started the war in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. He says not a single word who, how and why destroyed Vukovar, ethnically cleansed it of non-Serb population and murdered hundreds of innocent people on Ovcara in 1991. He says not a word of mass murders of Croatians in Skabrnje in 1991 days after Vukovar massacres. He mentions not a word about who ethnically cleansed one third of Croatia and occupied it, he mentions not a single word of the fact that by end of 1993 there were 1 Million displaced and refugee Croatians and Muslims in Croatia – it is therefore not true that “more Serbs were ethnically cleansed than any other community” in that war. He says not a word about who killed civilians in Sarajevo Market from a nearby hill in August 1995. He says not a word about Srebrenica genocide in 1995. But he talks about living in “a town in Bosnia where the decapitated heads of captured Muslims were displayed in the marketplace” – he does not say which town nor who put the heads there, nor how he knows the decapitated heads were of Muslims. He talks of displaced Serbs from Croatia and that someone will have to answer for that. Perhaps Mr Harland should investigate records in Belgrade, where he may find that in 1995 Croatian Serbs were ordered to evacuate in 1995.  Perhaps he may find that the reason why so many Serbs who fled Croatia then still remain displaced not because of what Croatian authorities have done or omitted to do, but because the very displaced persons are burdened by their own guilty conscience of the horror they put the Croatians and non-Serbs through before August 1995, when Operation Storm liberated the Serb occupied and ethnically cleansed Krajina.
Mr Harland says that, given the number of crimes committed during that war, by all sides, it’s not just that mainly Serbs have been convicted of war crimes. He goes as far as saying that “these results do not reflect the balance of crimes committed on the ground”. He omits to inform that crimes committed or suspected of having been committed by individuals have been and are still being processed in courts in Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. These though, are a different “breed” of war crimes than those that have reached the corridors of ICTY. Those that are processed by the ICTY fall into a category that is massive and that often took the form of the so-called joint criminal enterprise, genocide…
“Convicting only Serbs simply doesn’t make sense in terms of justice, in terms of reality, or in terms of politics”, says Mr Harland. Convictions in criminal courts only deal with justice and reality, or evidence. And the evidence so far assessed in ICTY has reflected the reality that was: Serb aggression – most brutal at that. It is only logical that there will be more Serbs than any other ethnic group represented in convictions dealing with that war.
“The Croatian leaders connived in the carve-up of Yugoslavia, and contributed mightily to the horrors on Bosnia and Herzegovina,” claims Mr Harland in his cheap pamphlet (as Croatian lawyer and journalist Zvonimir Hodak of www.dnevno.hr called Mr Harland’s article). Evidence and corroboration does not cross Harland’s mind!

Perhaps Mr Harland considers that the Croatian democratic referendum in 1991 to secede from Communist Yugoslavia was a conniving plan to carve up Yugoslavia?

Mr Harland seems to know a great deal (?). So, given that, does he know that the Serbian Republic entity within Bosnia and Herzegovina was created with crimes, on genocide and ethnic cleansing? One wonders why Mr Harland cares so little and so selectively about all the victims of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in Croatia. One possible reason that springs to mind is that he wishes to perpetuate the preposterous idea that it was the Serbs who were persecuted.  He feeds into the Serbs’ persecution complex so as to validate it! What other motive could explain his utterly outrageous assertion that Serbs were the ethnic group that was ethnically cleansed the most, in that conflict.  Is it persecution when one is justly convicted of crimes one has committed? Not in my book, but in Mr Harland’s or Serbia’s book that seems to be the case.
Ina Vukic, Prof. (Zgb); B.A., M.A.Ps.(Syd)

P.S.
New York Times did publish a Letter to the Editor regarding Harland’s article on 11 December 2012. The regretful thing is that Letters to the Editor can only be up to 150 words long and this is a miserable rule which in no way contributes to a healthy balance in journalism.

In “Selective Justice for the Balkans” David Harland claims that recent acquittals of Croatian and Kosovar defendants accused of war crimes against Serb civilians in front of the U.N. war crimes tribunal demonstrate bias in favor of West’s “friends.” But he misses the point of the tribunal, which is not to deliver justice for past wrongs equally for “all sides,” fostering reconciliation, but to carefully measure each case on its own merits. The case against Croatian generals rested on a technical reading of the legally allowed distance between legitimate targets and civilian objects; the case against Kosovar defendants collapsed due to poor witness protection and lack of clear evidence. We should judge the work of the tribunal by its legal expertise, not by the political outcomes we desire.
Jelena Subotic, Atlanta
The author is assistant professor of political science at Georgia State University and author of “Hijacked Justice: Dealing with the Past in the Balkans.”

Comments

  1. Alis Jacob says:

    so true Ina….keep up the great words….world hears truth in deed …. no Croat footprints on foreign lands …just what was and is always ‘ours’….

  2. Imported from Facebook comments: Everything’s coming to its own now. But, the price for our was too big – exactly because of USA. President Bush (Senior) supported Communist Yugoslavia, that is, Greater Serbia and was against Croatian independence, and USA could have solved everything in a matter of 2 or 3 months, but instead it let us bleed till August 1995

    • gaston besson says:

      Sure — Lets blame the American . Its was Europe responsability to resolve the probleme . And we did f… all . The war was finally over when the American came in and bomb them -

  3. Imported from Facebook comments: equalizing the crimes of a genocidal criminal enterprise of Greater Serbia with the infrequent response of its victims was never to be.

  4. Miso Sorbel says:

    From Shakespeare’s “Merchant of Venice”:
    LAUNCELOT: “Nay, indeed, if you had your eyes, you might fail of
    the knowing me: it is a wise father that knows his
    own child. Well, old man, I will tell you news of
    your son: give me your blessing: truth will come
    to light; murder cannot be hid long; a man’s son
    may, but at the length truth will out”.

    Stuff David Harland and his “cheap pamphlet”. Give thanks to this our digital communication era and internet where both the good and the bad travel equally fast but the good is the one that wins the race of humanity, after all. Patience and the world will acknowledge without hesitation, despite NYT, that the Serbs deserved the criminal convictions they got in the Hague.
    Proud to call Croatia my dearest friend!

  5. Marija Tomislava says:

    Thank you again, Ms Vukic! Are there any chances that you enter the Croatian politics and take over a place of the woman who hates Croatia, but holds a position of Minister of Foreign Affairs, spreading her lies about the Homeland War in Croatia all around the Globe. Famous Vesna Pusic, a sister of the ex JNA captain, who also hates everything starting with “H” (Hrvatska”), “C” – Croatia, and especially the ordinary alphabet letter “U”, used today all over the world instead of the pronoun “You”.
    You could do so much, because YOU KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT THE EARLY NINETIES IN CROATIA.
    Please, think about that….
    Dovidjenja, with respect,

    Marija Tomislava

  6. Good job Ina. We also republished your article and Jelena’s response in NYT on our Srebrenica Genocide Blog http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.ca/2012/12/david-harlands-serbian-propaganda-in.html

  7. I will never understand why the Serbs have this victim complex. What I find more disturbing and confusing, though, is why anyone, any decent, knowledgable person with an ounce of common sense and logicla-thinking capacity, would feed into their massive victim complex.

    • Psychologically speaking, Kat, playing the victim takes away the guilt and bad feelings that bad deeds generate and although most public will not fall for the false victim, some do. Politically – you can bet your bottom “dollar” that they did that same under Communist Yugoslavia – i.e. “attack is best defense” strategy.

    • “serbs victim complex”???where is about 350.000 serbs from croatia now??what about thousands of killed women and children victims throw “action storm”??oh, my god!!

      • Well Johnny, you have just proven the point that Serbs (most of them) actually do have “victim complex”. How? You might ask. Well, where did you get your figure of 350,000? Out of your sleeve? Out of your “victim complex”? That made-up figure is just the exact way many Serbs spread lies by blowing the facts out of all reality and proportion. There were no victims killed in Operation Storm and certainly no thousands of them Read the facts, don’t speak out of your complexes and urges to wash away the thousands of non-Serbs that actually were killed by Serbs before Operation Storm. Where and when were as you claim those thousands of women and children killed? Please enlighten the world otherwise your comment only serves your hatred and lies. As for the Serbs who fled Croatia, upon orders from Belgrade to evacuate, most are still in Serbia I imagine, probably too scared to face their victims and the truth of the evil many of them perpetrated or wanted to perpetrate against Croatians and non-Serbs.

      • Yes, you have a victim complex. The way you reacted and replied to my comment only further proves this to me, especially if you use Operation Storm as your basis of proving Serbs as victims of Croatian aggression. You speak as if only Operation Storm happened, but what about the years leading up to it? What happened to warrant the need for Operation Storm in the first place, I wonder? It couldn’t have possibly been the terrorism, murder, ethnic cleansing, displacement and pillaging of Croatians on Croatian land, by Serb aggression, which was set in place through the promotion of the hate and fear mongering Greater Serbia Policy?

      • gaston besson says:

        what about thousands of killed women and children victims throw “action storm”??oh, my god!!

        Where did you get this numbers from ? Thousands of children and women killed by the Croatian army ??? Who told you that ?
        Hope you are just miss inform . You have to stop listening Serbe propaganda .

    • Francis A. says:

      A lot of hatred towards Serbs here on this site. It is strange you should mention “Serbian propaganda”, when I see a lot of “Bosniak propaganda” on this very site. It is disturbing that you have no remorse for crimes that Bosniaks committed. In the same token, you are outraged when Serbs show no remorse. The amount of nationalism on ALL SIDES is what is deeply disturbing to an outside observer. The truth is that 8,000 Bosnian Serb civilians died in Bosnia (ICTY figure). By comparison, 25,000 Bosniak civilians died (ICTY). Counting military deaths, over 100,000 people died. I mourn for all 100,000; You seem to only mourn your own, hating the other. Nationalism and selective history about that war will only further divide your country. Propaganda perpetuated on sites like this will only anchor your people into a vision of the war where all on your own side are good, all on the other side are bad. Nationalistic love for the self and for your “people”, hatred for the “others”. Reading some of these comments are very disturbing to me. You claim that “only truth” exists on this site, but it is only truths which you support.

      • No hatred on this site Francis A. Just facts. If you choose to interpret facts as hatred there is nothing anyone can do to remedy that. If you had read the posts on this site you would have understood that we stand for justice for all victims no matter what their nationality and no matter what the nationality of perpetrators is. However, there is a huge difference between victims as a result of state politics and as a result of individual crime. One is joint criminal enterprise and the other is individual criminal behaviour. All should be condemned. There is absolutely nothing wrong with nationalism because it is present everywhere. True nationalism means love for ones country and people while respecting the others. And don’t forget, no Croatian or Bosniak gun was fired in Serbia, against Serbs who lived in Serbia, but Serbs from Serbia did come to Croatia and Bopsnia and Herzegovina with only one aim: to take the land away which was not within Serbia’s borders. Although Serbia did all this it still tries to convince the world that it didn’t, that it did it because of history, because of I don’t know what. Nothing, absolutely nothing can justify the horror that occurred against Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. And that is not hatred, it’s simply a fact and it must be dealt with. We, I support only the truth and there is only one truth (credible sources are used to place it on this site), any other is simply personal opinion. And, the bottom line is: if someone is attacked and his/her life and home are threatened then that person has an absolute right to defend himself and his/her home. The fact that so many Serb soldiers died or were killed could have easily been avoided had Serbia complied to requests and resolutions for peace …while there weren’t so many deaths, early in the peace.

      • Michael Dugandzic says:

        Why would the Jews of Europe ‘show remorse’ and ‘equalise guilt’ for the deaths of their Nazi Persecutors? In saying so, Why would the Croatians ‘show remorse’ and ‘equalise guilt’ for the deaths of their Četnik Persecutors?

    • Francis A. says:

      In World War II, 550,000 ethnic Serbian civilians were murdered. You do not understand their “victim complex” because you choose not to.

      • Francis A. Wikipedia is no reliable source, that is where you seem to get your figures from and we do not. The issue with “victim complex” is not about victims, we all want justice for victims no matter what their nationality. The problem with Serb political stances is that Serbia does not recognise nor accept the horror it has done against other nations. Sorry, but even to this day some Serb political leaders say that Srebrenica was not genocide! Please!

      • Francis A. says:

        US Holocaust Museum states that, “330,000-390,000 ethnic Serbs were killed by the Ustashe alone”. This of course does not include civilians killed by the Germans and the Nazi Handzar divisions in Kosovo and in Bosnia. With that said, the estimate of 500,000 is a pretty conservative one, Ina.
        http://www.ushmm.org/shared/search/main.php?q__typ=&q=ethnic+Serbs&Submit=

      • Francis A. – I hope that you do know that actual figures of those killed in the Holocaust have not been ascertained by any organisation and there is GREAT disagreement between world’s experts on this so what the US Holocaust Museum, publishes is really one version of the truth. Furthermore that Museum does not mention at all the Jews exterminated in Serbia under Milan Nedic’s Nazi puppet government. Serbia exterminated 94% of its Jews by May 1942 and was one of the first European countries to declare itself as “Jew Free”/Judenfrei. While no one in their right mind would deny the Holocaust the truth remains that records and discovered remains etc of those killed in Croatia are far less than what some people like to say. Also – do not forget – Jasenovac area concentration camps remained open until 1946/47 and in them a great number of communist victims of former Yugoslavia were exterminated. But then again that fact has been well suppressed by communists from the media just as they increased the number of those killed to unreal proportions – all propaganda. Having said this even one single Serb, Croat, Muslim etc killed as innocent victims etc is one too many.

  8. Thank you Ina

  9. Unfortunately Harland is not the only one regurgitating the same propaganda and lies that Serbia and the ICTY prosecution have been peddling… see the latest in The Independent..

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/in-the-search-for-justice-in-the-former-yugoslavia-are-we-ignoring-the-serbian-victims-of-war-crimes-8422169.html

  10. to @kat and @inavukic:
    i`m so sorry but @inavukic has blocked my answer!

    • Johnny, WWII Ustashe answered for their crimes which is not the case for Chetniks. Your comment was blocked because this site only deals with the truth. Your attack against Aloysius Stepinac was the main reason for blocking your comment as it was against this sites comment policy. We only publish the truth, documented. We suggest you read the book “When Courage Prevailed” by Esther Gitman – link to it is on the left margin of this site. We understand you perhaps prefer the history to stay as former Communists wrote it (falsely) but the truth is – Stepinac saved the Jews, he did not persecute them. It will take time to correct the historical injustice against him, injustice that was perpetrated against him by people who had similar views like you. Thank you on your comment.

  11. croluburic@hotmail.com says:

    The Serbs think they can manipulate history as the communists have ? Can they see that everything comes to an end sooner or later… GB..

  12. Thanks for pointing out this article, Ina. It is always interesting to read from what/whose perspective the national media notices Yugoslavia or the War Tribunals.
    I don’t really have a comment, but a question (and maybe this will start something). I have friends who are Croatian (living in Germany) and I am interested in reading historical accounts of the Balkans that are a bit more, shall I say, literary. Straight history seems to turn me off, and I am more interested in critical essays or first-hand accounts. Any recommendations?
    I’ve read “The Body of War: Media, Ethnicity, and Gender in the Break-up of Yugoslavia,” by Dubravka Žarkov and I found it incredibly insightful, provoking much conversation. But that text was a specific model of interpretation. And now I’m looking for more.
    Thanks for the help, and keep up the great work!

    • Hi eatingthepages. Thanks for your comment and question, I know what you mean re more literary presentation of history. Will look into some for you however the Christmas season is a bit busy etc. For starters the book by Mishka Gora “Fragments of War” (can be purchased via amazon.co.uk etc) is a first hand account from experiences of a humanitarian aid worker during the war. The great thing about this book is that the reader can actually imagine the battlefields and ethnic issues even if the book writes about daily events etc. Truly touching and eyeopening. I wrote a review of this book some months ago.

      • Thanks for the recommendation Ina! I read your review on Amazon, and the book looks great (especially from the Humanitarian perspective). I forgot to mention that I also have Ivo Andric’s “The Bridge on the Drina” on my to read shelf. :-)

      • The Bridge on Drina is truly a great read and most educational.

  13. Francis A. says:

    I notice you left out my Yad Vashem estimate, World Center for Holocaust Research. Here it is again, since the US Holocaust Museum one “is really not the truth”, perhaps Yad Vashem can shed light on “the truth”.

    • Francis A. – I left the link out from YadVashem Research Center and will do that until such time when they write the truth about the treatment of Jews during WWII in ALL former Yugoslav states. I am certain that most of the world knows of crimes against Jews committed in Croatia (or by part of Croatia as all were not pro-Nazi) but it does not know to the same extent about the crimes against Jews that occurred in Serbia. I have good reason, and collected quite a bit on the work of supposedly credible research on the Holocaust, to reject objectively publishing any link from any centre etc that does not treat all truth equally. And that is not being nationalistic at all, that is being fair and true to all no matter where they come from.

      • Francis A. says:

        Crimes were committed against Jews in every country where the Nazis were occupiers. This includes France, Belgium, Netherlands, Poland, Serbia, and etc….. No, we do not blame the Serbs. No, we do not blame the French, the Dutch, the Polish, etc… We blame their occupiers.

      • Exactly my point – the Occupiers in Serbia DID NOT act alone – they had lots of help from Serb Nazi puppet state under Nedic, but somehow that gets swept under the carpet – not for much longer I trust. Once all own up to their sins the world will be a much better place. The WWII governments of Poland, France, Belgium, Netherlands did not establish themselves as “Judenfrei” like Serbia did as early as May 1942!

    • Francis A. says:

      The WWII governments of Poland, France, Belgium, and Netherlands did not establish themselves as “Judenfrei” because the Nazis had a much harder task there in solving “the Jewish problem”. Hundreds of thousands of Jews lived in those countries, whereas in Serbia there was a little over ten thousand living there in World War II.

  14. Francis A. says:

    Emmanuel Schafer of the SS declared that in 1942. He was an SS gestapo agent who was sent to Serbia in order to establish the Nazi-quisling state. Hence, a German declared it and posted it on a postage stamp, showing how well HE had done in making Serbia “Judenfrei”. What has that anything to do with the Serbs?

  15. Francis A. says:

    It is useless to argue with you Ina. You ought to know though that your arguments regarding Serbia in World War II are as useless as trying to get you to see the truth. Like I said, you hold onto your “truth”, myself and the rest of the world will hold onto ours.
    Cheers,
    Francis

    • Don’t forget Francis A. I too belong to the world and truth will out. I have no subjective truth because I was not even born at the time of WWII but now that many archives are finally being opened throughout the world – the truth will out!

      • Francis A. says:

        “The truth will out”. I doubt your attempts at revisionism will do so, Ina. I have no dog in the fight, just a World War II history junkie who thinks it a shame nationalism should determine views which are so patently and historically wrong. Why don’t you give me links from more reputable sources not just the US Holocaust Museum and the Yad Vashem Holocaust Museum and I will see if whatever we have been taught for the past 70 years has all been a lie, and not “the truth”.

      • Revisionism in modern times, Francis A., means setting the records straight and not leave the history as written by victors etc. Hence, revisionism is a positive thing. There are many references coming about lately about the truth of world war II and since you say you are a WWII junkie then there should be no problem for you to find resources, just as it is not for me – because I am prepared to see the truth of all sides, including Croatian. But just as a “teaser” for a junkie check out the book http://www.amazon.com/Serbia-Serbs-World-War-Two/dp/0230278302 … an objective assessment of what happened in WWII Serbia …”In the case of Serbia, bad faith about World War Two means praising Nedic ́ for having allegedly saved Serbian lives by collaborating with the Germans, while, at the same time, praising Mihailovic ́ for having allegedly fought against the Germans – thus adopting a position that Serbs were on the right side, regardless of which side they were on! Bad faith, in the Serbian case, also involves discounting evidence of Chetnik collaboration with the Germans and likewise of the Nedic ́ regime’s complicity in crimes against Jews and other persons. But bad faith is not without its consequences. As Sartre warned, although bad faith ‘does not believe itself [to be] in bad faith’, by the same virtue it ‘does not believe itself [to be] in good faith’. A person or regime which is in bad faith, thus, occupies a treacherous promontory from which the danger of falling is ever-present, and from which the plunge threatens to take one deep into trauma”.

  16. Francis A. says:

    I am not trying to diminish the 10,000 Jews that were killed by the Nazis in Serbia, I am simply stating why it was easier for Belgrade to become “Judenfrei” before Paris could become, or Warsaw, or whatever city you may have that was under Nazi occupation. Surely, it is easier to kill 10,000 out of 15,000 then it is to kill 400,000 out of 450,000. And again, what has this to do with the Serbs?

    • Understood Francis A. – the point is that Milan Nedic’s government collaborated with the occupying forces and brought the Jews to slaughter. So, it would be nice if Serbs stopped putting all the blame onto Nazi’s. THat’s what it has to do with Serbs.

      • Francis A. says:

        It is not Serbs putting all the blame onto Nazis. Here are Yad Vashem and the US Holocaust Museum doing it too. Nationalism is not bad, Ina, but if it leads to hatred and demonization of other nations, and, more specifically, other people, then it obviously is.

      • Again Francis A. we have removed your links to Holocaust Museum – again, because they state untruths. They say Germans dealt with Jews in Serbia swiftly, completely omitting to mention the collaboration of Milan Nedic’s government of Serbia at the time in the extermination of Jews there. Certainly, Serbia has not moved a finger to correct this either, therefore one cannot say that Serbs are putting blame onto Nazis, yes, but also they are not doing anything to correct what Holocaust Museum etc have written. Nationalism if you like is only “bad” when one nation wants to take over another. Nationalism within the confines of national borders is a good thing and it’s spread all over the world. It is not demonization when one nation defends oneself from aggression from another. Defending oneself comes in many acceptable forms including pointing to the negative sides of the aggressor.

    • Michael Dugandzic says:

      The culpability of Nedic’s Serbia in the Holocaust was driven by the Serbian Orthodox Church. Serbian Nazi formations such as those of Dimitry Ljotic were complicit without the help of their German Nazi mentors.

Trackbacks

  1. [...] the response is always published. When it comes to the appalling article in New York Times (NYT) by David Harland, about which I have written recently , I have not come across any reactions from say Vesna Pusic, Croatia’s Foreign Minister, nor from [...]

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