From left: Jadranko Prlic, Milivoj Petkovic, Bruno Stojic, Slobodan Praljak, Berislav Pusic, Valentin Coric
Photo: AFP/ jutarnji.hr
There come times in life when you just want to climb on the top of a mountain and shout: liar, liar liar! You want the world to hear you; the burden of desecrated truth weighs down heavily.
So, as I shout liars, liars, liars, this time, it’s in the direction of ICTY Trial Chamber’s recent judgment against the Six Croats of Herceg-Bosna in which the Trial Chamber ruled that they, together with Croatia’s leadership (including dr Franjo Tudjman) had participated in a joint criminal enterprise against Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) – all as part of some Greater Croatia expansion!
A great deal has been written in response to this shocking and politically carved judgment, that seems to have been cemented through efforts of channeling much hearsay and half-truths into the pen where ICTY’s “joint criminal enterprise” creation awaited fodder to give it life. It’s a part of human nature to become restless and distressed, to vent frustration and disappointment – pending an appeal to the Trial Chamber’s decision. So I’m shouting again – it takes a great deal of effort these days for truth to surface and stay there.
Ante Nazor of dnevno.hr portal has recently written a great article on the matter, which, I’m pleased to say, justifies and feeds my “liar, liar, liar” shout against the judgment and prosecution’s witnesses.
Ante Nazor writes (translation in italics):
This judgment, condemning the political and military leadership of Herceg-Bosna, and Croatia for “joint criminal enterprise” against Bosnia, shows how unconvincing ICTY’s “slogans” that guilt is individualised in its verdicts are. With this judgment it’s suggested that Croatia is responsible for aggression against Bosnia and Herzegovina (BiH), which is contrary to the historical facts.
Contrary to the claims made in the Trial Chamber judgment against 6 Croats of Herceg-Bosna the facts clearly show that Croatia had not committed aggression against Bosnia, nor had it conducted a “joint criminal enterprise”, but only reacted to the events that occurred in BiH, events the Croatian leadership could not ignore: firstly the Serbian aggression in April in 1992., and then the Bosniak (Muslim) – Croatian conflict in BiH, for which Croatia is not responsible, nor had it been caused by president Franjo Tudjman and defense minister Gojko Susak, but real threat of extinction of the Croats as one of the three constituent peoples of Bosnia and Herzegovina appeared in the area where they had lived for centuries.
The ICTY prosecution did not hide its triumphalism after the verdict as it enthusiastically commented for television that the “Serbian Republic and Herceg-Bosna are the same”. (Reminder: Serbian Republic within Bosnia and Herzegovina was founded on genocide including Srebrenica massacre). Then there were some non-government organisation and individuals who, after the above said ICTY judgment, said through media that the public has argued for years that president Tudjman, defence minister Susak and almost the whole of the then Croatian authorities were joint criminals “and that Croatia is founded on crimes”. (Perhaps it’s good to remind ouselves here that those organisations and individuals were and are those die-hard communists at heart who never wanted a free Croatia anyway). But none of these “righteous” ones answered the question of what would happen to the Croats in BiH had they not organised themselves and had they not received help from Croatia? Who would defend them? Bosnia and Herzegovina? Europe? USA? NATO? Yugoslav People’s Army? Given the events in Croatia in 1991 (brutal Serb aggression) and given the experience with the area Croatian villages Ravno in BiH in October 1991 (of which the Hague prosecutor had to know) the only thing that remained for Croats in BiH was to organise their defence. The ICTY prosecutor also had to know the fact that even before the burning of village Ravno in BiH, Croatian Serb forces (aka Martic’s rebel forces) with their incursion into the territory of BiH Bosnian Grahovo in June 1991 extrtacted a sincere reaction from Alija Izetbegovic in the media: “at this moment we are not able to cope with the increasingly violent internal and external aggression” and that the country cannot resist external aggression (by Serb forces).
Therefore, it is an utter nonsense from ICTY prosecution to claim that Croats in BiH did not have a reason for self-organisation, when it is known that the institutions of BiH at the time, neither Croats nor other citizens, were not able to protect themselves against Serbian armed formations. Is it not cynical that the prosecutor in any court in Europe accuses Croats in BiH for the political and territorial organisation to defend themselves against the Serbian aggression, which, at the beginning, was the main reason for the establishment of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna on 18th November 1991, in the circumstances when Europe’s arms embargo against the former Yugoslavia significantly impeded defence efforts of Croats and Bosniaks (Muslims) at the beginning of Serbian aggression?
All this and many more facts, as well as a chronology of events, were disregarded by the Hague prosecution in its effort to accuse Croatian leadership and Croatia of “joint criminal enterprise” in BiH.
Quoting excerpts from transcripts as evidence for its claim (which are generally presented in the media in Croatia), ignored the transcripts whose content is contrary to the allegations of the prosecution.
Contrary to Greater Serbia, the construction of theories about the creation of Greater Croatian is based on lies. Certainly, unlike Serbs, Croats did not attack other countries of former Yugoslavia so the ICTY prosecutor evidently went about concocting one through this court case.
For example, it was President Tudjman, whom the prosecution accuses of creating a “Greater Croatia” at the expense of BiH, who on 56th (Closed) session of the Government of Croatia on 25th November 199 (I.e. 7 days after the proclamation of the “Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna”) concluded that “in accordance with the Croatian policy and politics it builds itself upon, there cannot be any changes in the borders,” and so “Croats in BiH must ensure their interests within the state, as long as ii exists.”
He also noted that “we must be aware of the fact that the Serbian part of Bosnia and Herzegovina is fully in the hands of the Serbian government, that it is armed and in service of the Greater Serbia policy” and that “Muslims run their own politics which in fact, as far as the leadership is concerned, is on the line of maintaining Yugoslavia “.
Accordingly, looking at the politics led by President Tudjman BiH and his statesmanlike moves (no change to borders by force, the recognition of sovereignty and independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina as a union of the three constituent peoples, participation of Croats in BiH defence and liberation, and other facts) show that the role of Croatian President Tudjman and Serbian President Milosevic and Croatian and Serbian war in BiH, as well as the role of the Croatian Community Herceg-Bosna and the Serbian Republic, cannot be considered equal, despite the Hague prosecution’s and the domestic “lovers of justice” persistence in trying to make it so.
This is corroborated by the fact that most informed and most respected judge in the Trial Chamber which rendered the judgment previously cited Six Croats of Herceg-Bosna, Jean-Claude Antonetti, in his dissenting opinion states that President Tudjman at a meeting of the Supreme State Council 18th November 1991, when Herceg-Bosna was established, said he is not about creating a community of Herceg-Bosna, but a declaration that proves that the Croats of Bosnia and Herzegovina are working to establish a community with no separation of BiH, and that “this document does not support the theory of a Greater Croatia. ”
So I reiterate: with the exception of Judge Antonetti of ICTY Trial Chamber, the prosecution and its witnesses: liars, liars, liars. The saddest thing of all, pending a court appeal in this matter, the conflict and intolerance between Croats and Bosniaks in BiH deepens by the day – all because of this abominable politically wrapped judgment. I am certain that such a scenario was planned and fueled by those who want to legitimise the entity of Serbian Republic within BiH that was created on genocide, ethnic cleansing, rape and utter horror. Ina Vukic, Prof. (Zgb); B.A., M.A.Ps. (Zgb)
Is This A Joint Criminal Enterprise and Muslim Aggression Against Bosnia and Herzegovina?
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an unforgivable miscarriage of justice by ICTY ….legitimising sadistic serb miscreants within BiH…. Justice was slain by transgressive judges whose future lives will be weighted by the horror that was BIH as the truth will surface and its cries will not be silenced.
Alis Jacob, thank you on your comment – and I quote Ellis Teters, 1913-1995, The Potter’s Field – “It may well be,” said Cadfael, “that our justice sees as in a mirror image, left where right should be, evil reflected back as good, good as evil, your angel as her devil. But God’s justice, if it makes no haste, makes no mistakes.”
And karma is potent.
Thank you. Still don’t understand all this perverse hatred of Croatia…what is wrong with people.
Sunman I don’t understand it except I believe the political currents have a great deal to deal with unresolved and fully “undealt” with guilt for all the crimes that were committed during and after WWII and for the failure of Yugoslav Kingdom (Serb led) created after WWI.
Indeed Ina. You have an innocent man in jail thanks to the ICTY, Dario Kordic, who is God-willing to be released this month. Dario was incarcerated based on a witness’ hearsay evidence. Yes this is allowed at the ICTY! The ICTY is a joke and follows no respectable judicial system on the planet. Meanwhile where are the Muslim perpetrators of the massacres at Buhine Kuce, Krizancevo Selo, Guca Gora’s monastery…Read: Group of authors: Dossier- Crimes of Muslim units against the Croats in BiH 1992.-1994., which can be found here: http://www.hercegbosna.org/STARO/engleski/download.html and downloaded
Thank you, Veronika, indeed much of Muslim/Bosniak war crimes has eluded the ICTY, which is just so unjust, so politically corrupt. Dario Kordic has paid for crimes he did not commit – that is the belief of many and support to him from Croats has been so wonderful to see.
ZI CANICULARA !
Desi adie vantul
Aerul te frige !
E tare cald pamantul
Si verdele se-ncinge .
Temperatura s-a ridicat
La peste 38 de grade
Pamantul negru s-a crapat
Iar iarba verde arde .
Apa-n fantana s-a-ncalzit
Si-i galbena, calaie,
Vietatile-au murit
Desi vantul inca adie.
Este-o ZI CANICULARA
Ce parjoleste totu-njur
Cardiacii pot sa moara
De n-au pe cineva-mprejur .
Si astfel, stai in casa
Caci afara-i foarte cald
Te uzi mereu pe fata
Caci fata-i de smarald .
Aliosa.
Thank you Aliosa;
Google translate of Aliosa’s comment/poem in Romanian:
Scorching day!
Although the wind blows
Air’s hot!
It’s cool earth warm
And green is-singed.
The temperature was raised
More than 38 degrees
Black Earth was split
And the green grass burning.
Water-fountain was not warm up
And the yellow calla,
Creatures have died
Although wind still blows.
It’s a hot day
What scorches everything is njur
Cardiac patients may die
It did someone about face.
And so, stay at home
For her very hot outside
You always wet face
For front-and emerald.
Alyosha.
@ Buna dimineata !
Gestul domniei voastre ma onoreaza !
Va multumesc mult !
Cu toata stima,
Aliosa.
Aliosa says in translation: Good Morning!Your gesture honors me!Thank you very much!
I say: you’re welcome Aliosa – we live in a big world but there are many ways we can keep close. Best regards and thank you on your support
The new domain name of “Croatia: land and people” is http://www.croatia.eu.
Thank you reader, will note that.
As usual, great post Ina.
I suggest you c/p it onto the commentary section of Cohen’s naive piece: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/19/opinion/global/roger-cohen-enough-of-the-daytonians.html.
Note the Pavlovian salivating regarding Herceg Bosna and Croatia in the comments section underneath the text.
Thanks therealamericro, will do and hope they’ll keep it there 🙂
I am with you on this one…
Power and Money has made this World an unjust one.
The argument is, has it always been this way? We just see it more due to the Internet. I blog this kind of stuff almost every week.
http://prayingforoneday.wordpress.com/2013/06/14/to-the-people-of-the-usa-i-am-sorry-for-what-is-coming/
I am in Scotland and this one scared me..
Many wanted to debate the idiot in the Video and ignore the message..
Good blog
Thank you prayingforoneday
>>Shaun<< 🙂
It is ok, it is hard to tell if some bloggers are men or woman here, lol
x
Yes it is but at the end of the day it’s the thought that counts 🙂
I know..I was in Jest… 🙂
Call me “Allistdair”
lol x
🙂
🙂
Ina, I think that Dr. Nazor’s other article, here: http://www.dnevno.hr/kolumne/ante-nazor/67367-tuzna-19-obljetnica-stradanja-hrvata-u-uzdolu.html, succintly points out the illogic of the ICTY, Yugoslav ultranationalist-socialist / sham “humanist,” and greater Bosniak nationalist / Titoist AVNOJ BiH unitarist propaganda regarding the start of the Muslim-Croat Civil War (read: Bosniak aggression) which was for well over a decade falsely characterized as starting in Ahmic, until the ICTY tried to squeeze in another piece of Sarajevo wartime aggression justification, the Croatian defense of Prozor from against Muslim attacks.
Relevant text:
Sukob je započeo u petak 23. listopada 1992., između 15.30 i 16 sati, nakon što su pripadnici muslimanskih snaga ubili vojnika HVO-a Franju Zadru iz sela Dobroša, dok je traktorom razvozio hranu vojnicima na planini Crni vrh u predjelu zvanom zgon. On je prva žrtva toga sukoba, a druga žrtva je Hrvat Josip Glibo iz sela Glibe, kojeg su pripadnici muslimanskih snaga ubili nakon što je zarobljen. Potom su zapalili kuću Ljubana Glibe i štalu punu stoke… Među jedinicama u sastavu muslimanskih snaga koje su napale na Prozor i sela u istočnom dijelu općine, bile su i muslimanske snage iz Prozora koje su se 21. listopada 1992., na temelju naredbe njihova zapovjednika Muharema Šabića, povukle s bojišnice nasuprot četnika. Toga dana, 21. listopada, sudionici sastanka muslimanskih predstavnika i zapovjednika muslimanskih postrojbi iz Prozora i okolice u selu Blace bili su upoznati s time da će izbiti sukob s Hrvatima (poimence je poznato 30-ak sudionika toga sastanka i njihove dužnosti).
Nakon prestanka borbi, bošnjačko (muslimanska) promidžba u svijet je plasirala laž o 300 ubijenih Muslimana u Prozoru, a istina je da ih je u borbama poginulo devet, te da je poginulo pet, a ranjeno 18 Hrvata. Istodobno, plasirana je i laž da je Prozor potpuno sravnjen i da grad više ne postoji, te da je iz Prozora izbjeglo 3500 Muslimana, a istina je da su svi Muslimani iz grada zbrinuti i zaštićeni u hrvatskim obiteljima u selima oko Prozora.
O događajima u Prozoru govori i izvješće Kemala Mujičića i Aziza Mikića, čelnika HMDS-a, koji su početkom studenoga 1992. prolazili tim područjem, kako bi doprinjeli smirivanju sukoba. Između ostaloga, u izvješću o sukobu u Prozoru navodi se:
– da su u Prozoru 4. studenoga „vidjeli dosta spaljenih i oštećenih kuća, lokala, restorana, trgovina i kioska“, no da se unatoč tome slika koju su vidjeli „nije slagala s novinskim izvještajima koji su govorili o totalno srušenom Prozoru, o golemom broju mrtvih i ranjenih, posebice među Muslimanima, o izbjeglom stanovništvu itd.“;
– da je „očito da su sukob inicirali Muslimani, ekstremisti iz SDA, vođeni prikrivenim agentima KOS-a“, da je „sukob planiran u Izvršnom odboru SDA“, čiji predsjednik „nije bio sklon Hrvatima“ i „tražio je da JNA dođe u Prozor“, da je zapovjednik „OS BiH za to područje bio tvrd i netolerantan“, da se hvalio „da ima tako dobru vojsku, kojom će s lakoćom pobijediti Hrvate“, a da je „pri bijegu iz Prozora ostavio kompletnu dokumentaciju s prilično kompromitiranim materijalom“;
– da nije točno da je u Prozoru ubijeno više od 300 Muslimana kako je „ministar inozemnih poslova BiH Haris Silajdžić izjavio jednom američkom novinaru“;
– da je „delegacija Muslimana koja je posjetila ranjene u sabirnom centru u Ripcima pokušala neke ranjenike nagovoriti na izjavu da su vojnici HVO pucali po civilima“, što je bila laž;
– da su im „mnogi Muslimani rekli da su ih upravo hrvatski borci spašavali i upozoravali ih da se sklone, jer je postojala opasnost od zalutalih metaka“.
Istina je i da su „unatoč svemu tome, unatoč dobrosusjedskih odnosa i međusobne pomoći, mnoge muslimanske kuće poslije okršaja bile opljačkane, a neke i zapaljene“, da je i hrvatski predstavnik općinske vlasti, čiji je stan također opljačkan, izjavio da je to „velika sramota za HVO“, no da to nisu činili vojnici HVO-a iz Prozora nego oni pridošli sa strane, te da je „od 38 kuća, koliko ih je u Prozoru zapaljeno, 37 muslimanskih“.
Drži se da je „sukob između Muslimana i Hrvata iniciran sa strane“, da je u tom cilju „KOS svojedobno angažirao mnoge suradnike, koji su počeli širiti lažne glasine i uspjeli izazvati međusobno nepovjerenje između Hrvata i Muslimana – nepovjerenje rađa nesporazume, a od nesporazuma do neprijateljstva malen je korak“. /O tome vidi: „Prilozi za povijest Rame u Domovinskom ratu 1990.-1995. (prilozi o borbi Hrvata u BiH za opstojnost na svojoj djedovini)“, Zagreb, srpanj 2011., str. 265-270; ili „Ramski zbornik“, 2001., str. 182-186/
Thank you therealamericro so much for all the links to video and articles relevant.
Follows Google Translate (may not be the best but still useful/ am pressed for time to do the translation myself today and it’s important that it does): The conflict started in Friday, the 23rd October in 1992., between 15:30 and 16 pm, after members of the Muslim forces killed HVO soldiers Francis Dobrosha Zadar from the village, while the tractor distributed food to soldiers on a mountain top in the black area called zgon. He is the first victim of the conflict, and the other victim was a Croat Josip Glibo the village mire, which are members of the Muslim forces killed after being captured. Then they set fire to a house Ljuban glib and barn full of cattle … Among the units within the Muslim forces attacked the window and villages in the eastern part of the municipality, were the Muslim forces from windows that are on 21 October in 1992., based on the commands of their commander Muharram Sabic, withdrew from the front line opposite the Chetniks. On that day, 21 October meeting participants Muslim representatives and the commander of Muslim forces from the Window and the surrounding area in the village of Blace, they were familiar with it to break the conflict with the Croats (namely the famous 30 participants of the meeting and their duties).
After the ceasefire, the Bosniak (Muslim) to promote the launch of the world’s lie about 300 Muslims were killed in the window, and the truth is that it is fighting killed nine, and that killed five people and wounded 18 Croats. At the same time, placed the lie that window completely razed and that the city no longer exists, and that the Window avoid 3,500 Muslims, and it is true that all the Muslims of the city cared and protected in Croatian families in the villages around the window.
The events in the Window says a report Mujičić Kemal and Aziz Mikic, leaders HMDS, which are the beginning of November in 1992. passed through the area, in order to contribute defuse conflict. Among other things, the report on the conflict in the window lists the following:
– That the fourth Window November “saw a lot of burned and damaged homes, bars, restaurants, shops and kiosks,” but that despite the image you have seen, “she disagreed with news reports that have been talked about has fallen Window, a huge number of casualties, especially among Muslims, on the refugee population, etc. “;
– That it is “obvious that the conflict initiated by Muslim extremists from the SDA, led by undercover agent KOS”, that “the conflict is planned by the Executive Board SDA”, whose president “was not fond of Croats” and “demanded that the JNA came in Window “, the commander of the” Armed Forces of BiH in this area was tough and intolerant, “that boasted” that has such a good army, which would easily beat the Croats, “and that” escape the Window leave all documents with a fairly compromised material “;
– It is not true that in Window killed more than 300 Muslims in the “Foreign Minister Haris Silajdzic told an American journalist”;
– That “the Muslim delegation that visited the wounded in a detention center in Ripča tried to persuade some of the wounded to the statement that HVO soldiers shot at civilians,” which was a lie;
– That they were “many Muslims say that they were just saving Croatian fighters and warned them to flee because of the danger of stray bullets.”
The truth is that “despite all this, despite the good-neighborly relations and mutual assistance, many Muslim houses were looted after the skirmish, and some fire,” that the Croatian representative municipal government, whose apartment also robbed, said it was ” great shame for the HVO, “but it did not do HVO soldiers from the windows than those who came from the side, and that” of 38 houses, many of them in Window torched 37 Muslim “.
It is believed that “the conflict between the Muslims and the Croats initiated on the side”, that is the purpose of “KOS once hired many co-workers, who began to spread false rumors and could cause mutual distrust between Muslims and Croats – distrust born misunderstandings and disagreements from hostility to small step. ” / On this see: “Contributions to the history of Rama in the war 1990th-1995th (Contributions to fight Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina to the existence of their ancestors) “, Zagreb, July 2011., P. 265-270, or “Rama Anthology” in 2001., P. 182-186 /
A great video explaining the duplicity of the HArmija through its collaboration with the genocidal VRS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zipn1HV6uec.
It is interesting that while accusing Tudman of being an “Ustasa” and of Hercegbosna being a “Ustasa project,” the same international community and Bosniak propagandists that spewed that had / have no problem with the entire indictment against Praljak et. al. being based on the lunatic rantings and ravings of an – Ustasa (http://www.hsp1861.hr/vijesti/970809haag.htm).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPIVnaSYItg
Hat tip TVHercegBosne
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DV4Cnd_hQk
Praljak destroys the lies yet again.
And again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTEptJeFkoo
and again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEbcC-_HBnU
and again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Wk9ax43pU
and again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pByPPsW8VO4
and again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTEptJeFkoo
and again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILet1Is79wQ
and again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy3qmVVUoDc
and again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJdR6JM_oWE
…..
Is ICTY prostitution court as you like to call it or did you maybe change your mind.,I mean it gets confusing.
Amir Pilipovic – I only let this comment of yours through to demonstrate how readers can twist and turn truth. ICTY has not been called a prostitution court on this blog by post writers including me – prostituting justice by individual judges has, and that’s a huge difference. No changes of mind with author of this blog – we’re on track as ever. No confusion to anyone except to closed minds it seems
All that destroying didt help him yet,maybe second time around will be little better.
Well, with the non-political Meron presiding over the appeals chamber, I am optimistic the irrational, contradictory, politically charged initial ruling (railroading) will be overturned.
Me too therealamericro.
When all’s said and done, if Croatia doesn’t do anything to change the recent judgment against 6 Croats including former Croatia leadership, it will stay forever as the joint criminal enterprise against Bosnian Muslims, no matter what Croatian public opinion may be. Yet we all know that if it wasn’t for Croatia HELP, Bosnia will be run over by Serbia army just like they did with SREBRENICA.
Right on Roko, thanks for comment
Ina ,ICTY is not prostitution court it only employs prostitutes ,is it what are saying.
Would suggest Amir Pilipovic you read the post(s) on this blog where it’s suggested that justice is being prostituted, and justice is not an employee.
Justice can be only prostituted by a judge,court or a pimp.And its where i get confused reading your posts.trying to figure out if it is prostitution of justice because it employs a prostitute or two or maybe its being pimped by a judge.But anyways whats up with all deleted comments,perhaps the truth hurts your feelings.
Amir Pilipovic, you can make your own conclusions as far as I am concerned I have written my opinion on prostituting justice and the facts around it are quite clear, if they’re not to you then this blog is not the place to set you “right”or un-confused you; Any deleted or modified comments on this blog are done in accordance with terms of use and comment policy of this blog, however, there has not been any comments deleted on this blog for weeks and weeks so I am not sure about what you are referring to. This blog owes you no explanation as terms of use and comment policy are clear, but if you are referring to the few deleted comments weeks back on issues of Herceg Bosna then these were deleted as comments developed into what was seen as harassment – again, a right of this blog to disallow or moderate certain comments and you are most welcome to start your own blog
Well said! Liars selfishly promote injustice.
The truth needs to be told.
Thank you Jas Baku – not just “needs” but “must” be told – the truth, that is
Ina – thank you for being Ina. You are a light in the darkness.
Thank you Theresa very nice of you to say that
Alija’s personal party, SDA, the real JCE:
BiH je sredstvo, a ne cilj / B&H is a means, not a goal https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZXWerjx0YKs&t=0
“Multiethnic” HArmija: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXWerjx0YKs
Another good definition of Prostitute, Amir, is those who stab their ally – who, despite allowing B&H to be a staging ground for genocide operations against Croatia and against Croats inside of B&H (Ravno), lobbying against Croatian independence, claiming the JNA would “defend the people,” and marching around Sarajevo and other B&H cities with Tito portraits and war criminal JNA flags – spared them from physical extermination March 1992-Oct 1992, and took in over 200,000 of their refugees in B&H (another 500,000 in Croatia), housed them, fed them, clothed them, and armed and trained their men, all for scraps on Karadzic and Milosevic’s table.
That would be a textbook example of, in the Bosniaks case, suicidal prostitution.
Well said therealamericro THANK YOU
And yet Kordic,Rajic,Cerkez,Blaskic ,Prljic and 6 ended up being war criminals,I mean you really do make sence.
Well, Amir Pilipovic yes I do make sense if you read the article and put aside other things that might be clouding your mind. Obviously you have no problem in calling the 6 as ending up war criminals before such conclusive or final statement can be made by any decent human being. They may end up losing the appeal but at this moment only bitter and twisted individuals can say that they ended up as … So please don’t come here to dish out your warped sense of righteousness, start your own blog for that
Ina my reply was to the realamericacro.,if somebody here makes no sense it would be him.I mean you guys believe that some croats are convicted war criminals becouse english ,american people hates you,not becouse they did,ordered war crimes,ethnic cleansing etc,etc.
Yes Amir I realised you replied to therealamericro comment but I had something to say also. I disagree that therealamericro makes no sense, in fact his evidential submissions have everything to do with facts. And as far as your comment as to what we “guys” believe – to believe is a right given to all. I don’;t believe it’s a mater of hate coming from foreign powers but rather a matter of political manipulation that in its outcomes I guess can be interpreted as some kind of hate. That’s just a human, a psychological fact.
What I do not understand is the supposed growing tension between Muslims and Bosnian-Croats. I do not understand the Muslim support for the guilty verdict, for “justice”, just like I did not understand why any of them supported the guilty verdict for Gotovina and Markac. Are they so quick to forget that it was Croatia who took in Bosnian refugees and gave them shelter, food, other basic necessities and some hope of surviving? Why would Croatian authorities allow that if they were trying to ethnically cleanse non-Croats? Are they so quick to forget that Croatia supported the ABiH? Are they so quick to forget that had it not been for Operation Storm, the world could have seen another Srebrenica-like massacre in Bihac and perhaps elsewhere? And Croatians are the bad guys now while poor little Muslims never did anything wrong at all, like attack and kill Bosnian-Croats in Herzegovina and other regions with a significant number of Croats, or receive the support of Mujahedeens? Yeah, right. Truth may be distorted by vile people for the purpose of furthering their vile ideologies, but history isn’t so easily erased. The truth does come out so maybe people should think twice before celebrating this unjust guilty verdict, or they’ll only make themselves look foolish. Bosnian-Muslims especially, should review their knowledge of the conflict before jumping on the bandwagon.
Yes Kat it does look like that the only way Bosnian Muslims can whitewash the horrors they perpetrated is to throw mud against Croats. We live and learn, and wait for the real truth to come out to the world with regards to Herceg-Bosna.
Let me correct you on couple of points,one of the reasons Kordic,Rajic,Blaskic,Cerkez are convicted war criminals is ethnic cleansing,now they did offer them death or third countries and rest they kept in con-camps like Helidrom .Croatia did also take in Mujahedeens and moved them to Bosnia but the real reason for it was to muddy waters,to justify its military involvement .When it comes to Bihac or Cazinska krajina,5th core had 50000 thousand solders so this cro story how it would become Srebrenica is too funny,especially since serbs did try to take it over in 1994,PAUK.its even all on youtube(breza,srbi u strahu od 5 korpusa,ovako se brani Bosna, etc)we have even wounded Ratko Mladic.But anyways Haage has 100 recorded tapes of Tudman,17000 k transcripts or 85 kg evidence ,all about Tudman so i think that honest cro people should read,see,view all of it(its public)and then find out the truth as said by Tudman.None of you wants to talk about SPORAZUM U GRACU,SPORAZUM U BUDIMPESTI etc,NOR HRHB where only croats can hold power,its independent,nor WASHINGTON AGREEMENT where there is nothing for croats,and it was singed by Tudman and Boban,Why is Tuti war criminal,who has killed BLAZ KRALJEVIC and why etc etc.So i guess im trying to tell you a story wich is 100% truthful ,if you get that Kordic ,Tuti ,Rajic,Blaskic ,and Cerkez are convicted war criminals,for war crimes,ethnic cleansing ,If you get that Rajic and Blaskic have had made a deal with prosecution(they both trashed Tudman)and if you understand that 6 in haage happened to be in charge of above mentioned people,only then you will be able to connect dots.
Still Amir Pilipovic YOUR CORRECTIONS ARE NOT WELCOME AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED because you fail to accept the possibility that someone is innocent until proven guilty (the latter includes appeal process) and that is evident, you fail to consider each individual case separately even if they are associate … Your truth is not 100% truth, just 100% of your belief – you conclusions of guilt are based on command responsibility rather than actual committing of crimes so please I will not connect any dots until due process is done, you can but not on this blog any more. Thank you
Well Ina i know that any honest comment is not welcome by you,i mean its you who keeps deleting them anyways,When it comes to INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY im sad to inform you that all croats are already convicted or proven guilty,which means that rule IUG doest apply anymore.Besides Blaskic,Rajic,Kordic,Cerkez,Tuti are serving there time or have done doing so.How is appeal going,did not hear anything about that yet,is it maybe one of those cute stories.Anyways its you who called a judgment invalid so your understanding of COMMON WEALTH LAW may be limited.
Amir Pilipovic – I’m letting this comment of yours through even though it is in breach of this blogs policy on commenting such as personal attacks. I’m doing it for the benefit of other readers of this blog who deserve explanation. Of course I do not need to defend myself of your allegations about honesty because everything written on this blog is corroborated with external sources and therefore is honest. As you have read disclaimer, terms and conditions & policy of this blog you will understand what I am talking about. If you have not read them then you should steer away from commenting and insulting individuals/me and so, making a fool of yourself. My or anybody’s opinions about a matter sourced externally are opinions and they too do not have anything to do with honesty as you might see honesty, but honesty in belief is pure honesty – a person honestly believes in something or not regardless of the content of that belief. You actually are on a mission to twist things and I will not let you twist my words – when I spoke about innocent until proven guilty (including appeal process as part of that due process) I was obviously referring to the 6 Croats from Herceg-Bosna. You have labelled them guilty as a matter of final conclusion and I refuse to because to do that would be biased and blatant disregard for due process, which you obviously have no problems with. That is I guess your right but my right is the right way I have been taught about due process under Commonwealth Law. I never called the judgments of Blaskic etc invalid because appeals processes in those have been exhausted (if after appeals there are still people who have reservations about judgments and who like to express their opinions and analysis of this they should be free to do so, while acknowledging the actual judgment – there’s nothing dishonest about that in a democracy, and, indeed it’s not an unknown occurrence that even years after judgments of guilt evidence comes forth that frees the convicted individual/ thank God in such cases that people who pursue justice to a bitter end exist and they should be protected from insults like the ones you seem to find easy to dish out), so please refrain from your idiotic insults about what people know or may not know for your own sake, not mine or anybody else’s about whom you know nothing or very little. Your comments are again taking the shape of bullying and personal harassment and if they continue in that way I will have no alternative but to delete them or moderate them as I had done with some before. If you have problems with rules of decency don’t comment here, open your own blog.
Quoting Amir Pilipovic: “And yet Kordic,Rajic,Cerkez,Blaskic ,Prljic and 6 ended up being war criminals,I mean you really do make sence”.
It is well known that in Hague important UN witnesses where lying under oath, i.e. Canadian general, Norway general, Swedish Minister, the 2 Prosecutors, Judge & others just to make word to believe that there was aggression on both sides (civil war). This was all orchestrated by few euro-countries that had agenda. Anyways, this is the fact and nobody can deny; they thought, they can use justice any way they like. We can only thank to Mr. Misetic and his team to tell the truth and, so they defended Croatian generals, and let them be free. Moreover, it is the same case with Bosnian living Croats who where assassin by the same bloody judge who shouldn’t be the judge in the first place. Lastly, Bosnia MUSLIMS should be more thankful to Croatia & Croatian people because if it wasn’t for them, there would have been just few left living, but it looks unfortunately, they have very short memory
Roko – thank you and very well put. With regards to memories of Bosniaks it does look that much of the good done by Croatia for them is forgotten because most would like to come out squeaky clean and yet the truth is quite dirty in many parts. By the way I hear that Bosniaks are enthused at the possibility of evading justice for war crimes that there’s been threats that they will sue Croatia for compensation (this is after the Hague judgment against 6 from Herceg-Bosna/ they too like Amir Pilipovic don’t seem inclined to wait for an appeal etc regardless of whether the appeal is upheld or overturned….) – just as well at least Croatian diaspora I know of have kept receipts, banks transfers etc of millions of dollars donated by Croatians living in diaspora then sent for their aid and food and shelter in early 1990’s – the diaspora might just make a counter claim in the court if it comes to that and want its money back or at least if compensation is awarded the amount for assistance given to be deducted from it … the moral of this would be that justice would be served if one saw to it that no one can double-dip into money for one and the same need.
Ina i do think that cro diaspora was robbed and you should sue a person or organisation you have send your money to,As we all know it was not a Muslim nor muslim organisation so you should come out and be honest and make it clear to fellow croats instead implying you have send all that money to muslims.So to sue bosniak for money you have never send to them is just a waste of time.If you ask me i would like to be sued by you and have a public trial ,televised one so we can show our evidence on who has ripped cro diaspora,.It would give you an opportunity to show all receipts,,bank transfers etc WHY DONT YOU POST ALL OF IT RIGHT HERE..not only that Tudman ripped you off but he did rip us off too.Now the problem you croats have is your not willing to GOOGLE TRANSCRIPTS OF TUDMAN and see who ripped who.
You Amir Pilipovic are some real nut! Where does it say that the diaspora will sue Bosniaks as stand alone – it says that if Bosniaks sue Croatia for compensation Cro diaspora might make a counter claim if it comes to that basically to recoup funds spent on aiding Bosniaks in 1990’s – that would only be fair because you see if Bosniaks sue for compensation then why should we not deduct that money spent on helping them at the time. I have not said nor implied Cro diaspora sent money to Muslims YOU MADE THAT UP AS YOU TWIST my words – And you Amir do not know everything how where money went in early 1990’s – diaspora was not robbed, only people like you like to spread that garbage without any proof. I never implied we sent money to muslims I said we helped them and as you know hundreds of thousands of muslim refugees were cared for in Croatia as they fled Bosnia & Herzegovina. But who knows with millions of dollars in donated funds through Croatian diaspora perhaps some from somewhere were actually sent direct to them for help. You are one angry, bully Amir Pilipovic – you jump to reacting without really reading what’s said because you evidently hate Croats and that’s been demonstrated here via your comments several times. I will not post receipts here because they are evidence that may one day become handy in court, internet is not the venue for that, but they are safely registered in an international court registry since 1996 – don’t you worry about that. We have worked too hard to let nuts degrade justice and pride. It’s just a matter of patience and letting the poisoned pens and steam run their course – then justice shall rule.
Well Ina let me tell you something ,don’t want to be rude or misunderstood by you ,Courts are all about evidence ,evidence and some evidence.Now you keep making claims on here that you cant back up saying proof is in the pudding.Well I hope that you understand courts are all about pudding which we cant find and you refuse to tell us where it is.It sounds like you don’t understand the word pudding in good old saying Proof is in the Pudding.So to be honest i have no idea why would you say cro diaspora should file counter claim saying that you have send millions to or for bosniaks when you personally know better then anybody else that isn’t the truth.Couple of bosniaks have been in Haage but you did not nor did any croat provide the pudding for some reason,maybe you don’t have it,maybe you are bluffing but either way we bosniaks did not go for it nor did Haage.And i guarantee you we will not in the future.i have published ,posted ,shared almost all of the evidence used in Haage in trial to croats and i did it proudly using my real name.After reading comments i so that Amir P asked you to post all the documents ,pudding that shows you actually have send millions to ,for bosniaks ,but you refused.I think it would be the best for croats if you do so ,post it for all the world to see or you can as americans would say put your money where your mouth is or put up or shut up.Otherwise you posts,blogs will become satire.
Braco P – look up the definitions of proof is in the pudding (which term by the way I did not use in this post) and once you do you will understand that I do not need to post any evidence here and especially not when you like Amir keep twisting my words to turn them into lies and you will not succeed. I said the words to the effect that Croatian diaspora sent millions of dollars in humanitarian aid with which funds were also used to help Bosnian Muslim refugees etc etc I did not say money was sent directly to Bosniaks and now the issue or rather the thought is if Bosniaks do as they threat – to sue for compensation – well then the diaspora will also have a right of counter claim to recoup its funds used to help the same Bosniaks who had received help fro Croatia and its diaspora and may be asking for compensation for those years/losses etc. I do not need to explain anything to you I hold that the diaspora has every right to join any such court case as a party just as I have led a group in similar circumstances in High Court in London in 1999 in my pursuit to work with Tudjman in order to ensure that funds held there and were left over after the war were returned to appropriate channels after bank guarantee expired for international loan for Croatia and development, and that the money doesn’t get thieved by those who came into power after him – I’m still on that case by the way because I still have my suspicions but these don’t involve Tudjman… There is no satire or anything of the sort here. You easily forget that in early 1990’s when hundreds of thousands of refugees from Bosnia landed in Croatia international aid was scanty for quite some time and funds from the diaspora channeled through international banks were life-giving almost.
Only Amir would praise kangaroo trials where false witnesses (Bearded Jasenovac, aka Stipe Mesic for instance, lied multiple times at the ICTY), quotes entirely out of context (i.e., patched between multiple, unconnected sentences from several paragraphs of transcripts), the ignoring of preceding, parallel and subsequent events on the ground, are the basis for convictions.
Please Amir, entertain us all and provide us the “controversial” transcripts of Tudman. Please. Inquiring minds want to see just how disingenuous you and the ICTY are, lets examine the text.
I’m not sure we’ll get anything along those lines therealamericro – cowards have always hidden behind cynic’s veils.
Hahaha Why dont just google TRANSCRIPTS OF TUDMAN or ask smart educated croat a question HOW COME NO DIGNITARIES COME TO SAINT FRANJOS FUNERAL.
Amir Pilipovic re no foreign dignitaries at funeral: Who cares! An amazing abundance of Croatian people was there. Tudjman lived for Croatian people and not for foreigners. And as for foreign dignitaries, absence who cares but ask Stjepan Mesic who started lies against Tudjman on the international scene around mid-1992. So, if the international dignitaries decided to listen to Mesic they can have him, only it’s just such a shame for Croatia not one has offered him residence or job … but who knows such a great dawn may yet bless Croatia
Well my friend Mesic for instance wasnt a witness vs croats but Milosevic,Manolic,Tihomir Blaskic,Rajic,Kljujic and many other croats did.Now we both live in USA and both know that google,bing,youtube are American companies and that they work just fine,since you did google it and have read it. It would be now perfect time for you to stop playing smart because you may overplay it.I mean dude everybody i know including many croats have done so.I highly recommend to you and all croats to watch on youtube KAKO JE OPLJACKANA HRVATSKA …
Yes well braco p – it’s what Mesic said that went against Croatia … mostly lies … hence after his first “secret” appearance in Hague in 1996/1998 (wasn’t a secret for long…) Hague prosecution i.e. Carla del Ponte started to put together her story which of course fell apart in 2012 … as to corruption and thieving there is no doubt that it occurred but it was not Tudjman – sorry to disappoint you and if you tell me it was those close to him and therefore he should be blamed that’s the same as saying you are guilty of murder or thievery if someone close to you does them and even if you knew nothing about it or could not stop it. You need to know who made that video and what is their motive and indeed the evidence and whether that evidence is tested in court, but again you will find that court evidence uses testimonies and unfortunately there are people who lie under oath but say if they hold a high position then they’re believed and it takes decades for truth to come out. You will not succeed here with your allegations when it comes to Tudjman because they are not true. He simply did not thieve.
Mesic might be your friend – you’re welcome to hold any friendships you want – I, on the other hand, don’t hold him as a friend of mine or as a friend of Croatian nation and its independence – sorry I got to know his ways up close and personal in early 1990’s and it did not take me long to collect quite a bit of unsavoury stuff… the day of seeing the full truth is yet to come for Croatia and it won’t be with the help of Mesic and his friends I think.
Well Ina I really have a problem with anybody who is willing to accuse,make a claim and refuse to back it up,now we all know that you have never had any attention of financially helping bosniaks … remainder of comment deleted as inappropriate and offensive
I too have a problem braco p with some comments like yours. I particularly take offense to commentators like you who deny the enormous help given to Bosniaks in Croatia and how that help was achieved (Croatia+international bodies+ Croatian diaspora)
Bearded Jasenovac lied repeatedly at the ICTY against Croatia, and against the Croats of Hercegbosna who between March 1992 and May 1993, when genocidal HArmija BiH aggression began, took in over 200,000 Bosniak refugees and clothed, fed and sheltered them, and trained and armed their men who fled the Serbs without as much a shot fired (so much for HRHB being intended to be “ethnically pure,” you don’t take in 200,000 refugees of another ethnicity and feed and ARM them if that is the case).
Bearded Jasenovac also lied to the US ambassador during and after Operations Blijesak and Oluja about “war crimes” and “ethnic cleansing,” which Bearded Jasenovac alleged were part of the mythical “Karadjordjevo Agreement” (which every single firefight and battle the HV, MUP, and HVO and MUP HRHB had with the JNA and VRSK / VRS between August 1995 and November 1995, debunk, as do all HV / HVO offensive operations, debunk) which subsequent State Department investigations entirely discredited.
Mesic was and remains a KOSovac. He was supposed to, along with Boljkovac and Manolic, help the JNA stage a coup and run a rump Croatia, as that apparent genocidal maniac Veljko Kadijevic wrote in his memoirs.
Mesic was the first to engage in illegal privatization with Nasice Cement, which he bought for Lipas on the German Mark.
braco p, feel free to look up how many companies Mesic and his children opened since 2000, when Bearded Jasenovac ran Croatia into the ground, allowed for predatory banking practices, privatized Croatian Telecom, destroyed the until Mesic, solvent Croatian National Bank, privatized INA, and opened Croatia’s national security archives to British media and intelligence.
And that, therealamericro, is only a “prelude” to the Bearded Jasenovac’s unsavoury (to put it mildly) dealings …
Ina you claim to be the truth teller and yet you keep removing comments ,saying they are offensive,or removing half of it.But you do claim that the truth will come out sooner or later ,I guess you are not waiting for the truth but your own.
braco p – your comments or parts of them will be removed or moderated as long as you keep presuming you know everything, writing offensive comments (particularly towards this blog which offers the truth, not mine but the recorded truth) and offering no verifiable corroboration for your claims. I still think that you should start your own blog, publish your views and opinions and see where that leads. And if I happen to be the one to help promote the truth people like you would like to confuse and bury – I’m proud of that.
I wish I knew Bosnian Muslims better when I was writing my check to help them buy food and shelter. Now I see I was really naïve and stupid. I can see now who I was dealing with,,,, Amir is not alone, his opinion is prevalent among most of the Muslims in Bosnia, and it’s nothing but Greed, Corruption, and the densely written volume of lies and hate of my beloved country. Shame on you Amir..
Thankfully Roko, as you suggest, there are also many who know what respect for one another means and are not afraid to show it. But it seems it’s the prevalent ones that irritate so we grow a hard skin and push on with spreading the truth even when the prevalent ones don’t see it, don’t want to see it …
Well if you are spreading the truth why dont you let us see all that documents you have in your file that prove you did send money to muslims.or maybe you dont have it.
No one needs to prove anything to you Amir Pilipovic, nor to me for that matter – courts of justice and various investigatory bodies are places where evidence is handed over – the matter of humanitarian help is too serious to fall for your cynical cheap hits.
Why should i be ashamed of your lies and stupidity.
Still waiting for the mystical “trenskrips” …..
It is pointless to argue with this bunch of Bosnian Muslims Ina, they are simply not grateful for what the Croatian and word community did for them,,,,, and still doing it today. The HISTORY didn’t teach them nothing, and it is really pity, but sooner or later they will find out what goes around comes around…have a nice day
While what you say Roko is true – one wonders whether there are any Bosnian Muslims that are capable of separating the good from the bad – it certainly doesn’t seem so judging from media that comes out of Bosnia. It’s a pity; but to those that do cherish the good and don’t get heard due to media manipulation – all respect.
We are thankful to world community.Dretelj,Helidrom,Dreznica and Gabela have been con-camps operated by HVO or Croats,Masaccre in Ahmici,Lasvanska Dolina ,Now Praljak,Rajic,Blaskic and some others are on the record admitting it even calling it a shame for croats,So I guess Bosniaks should be thankful for massacre ,ethnic cleansing,hell you put them through in those camps,Have you maybe ever considered thanking serbs for doing same to you croats.And when it comes to history we did learn a lot.But anyways when you study Washington agreement ,nobody showed up at saints franjo funeral.couple months ago a story about 6 croats went around world,Only then you will be able to understand that its actually croats who should be worried,Anyways Germany wants 21 croats from Croatia including Perkovic.Maybe you should ask your self a question “How come world community didn’t give us nothing in Washington Agreement”
braco p – “you” (we) put no one through nothing, but individuals who did are made responsible. The thrust of this discussion that unlike the Hague points to a “national” policy re Herceg-Bosna it is not true – but people like you would like to argue it is. As to war crimes committed or may have been committed please do not avoid to slot in the war crimes of Bosniak led BiH Army and the right of people to defend themselves. Oh you are so WRONG when you say “nobody showed up at Franjo Tudjman’s funeral” – enough said for you hateful mind set (by the way those that did not attend his funeral are nobody, indeed). Here’s a short record from his funeral in 1999
Yep braco p – and that “world” is slowly but surely pulling out its help – I guess they’ve had ample opportunities to see how Bosniaks operate: everyone is to blame for their woes and they are squeaky clean…the problem is that in the face of BiHArmy and it’s Mujahedin murderers is slowly but surely telling that world community that there is much to be sorted out. Croats should not be worried about anything – they are heroes for having the strength to defend their rights to self-determination in the face of the horror thrust upon them.
Bosnian Muslims have lost all credibility and respect long time ago when they provided training centers around Sarajevo for extreme terrorists (from Islamic countries) like Osama bin Laden, Mujahedeen,Talibani…
See “WIKIPEDIA” In 1999 the press reported that bin Laden and his Tunisian assistant Mehrez Aodouni were granted citizenship and Bosnian passports in 1993 by the government in Sarajevo. This information was denied by the Bosnian government following the September 11 attacks, but it was later found that Aodouni was arrested in Turkey and that at that time he possessed the Bosnian passport.
Following this revelation, a new explanation was given that bin Laden “did not personally collect his Bosnian passport” and that officials at the Bosnian embassy in Vienna, which issued the passport, could not have known who bin Laden was at the time.[117][118] The Bosnian daily Oslobođenje published in 2001 that three men, believed to be linked to bin Laden, were arrested in Sarajevo in July 2001. The three, one of whom was identified as Imad El Misri, were Egyptian nationals. The paper said that two of the suspects were holding Bosnian passports.
So how can we trust Bosnian Muslims today based on all conspiracies and lies responsible for 9/11 and thousands innocent life’s
Roko, I guess they’ll need to prove themselves trustworthy but it doesn’t seem they’re on that trail …
Yea Bosniaks are responsible for 9/11,only one thing I don’t get is Why would same americans give to Cardinal Puljic and croats two options,one being to love BiH and second to pick there stuff and go leave BiH(that happened in 2012 according to Puljic).I currently live in USA and personally know many Congressman and I can tell you that we bosniaks are highly praised by Americans,Canadians ,English etc.Ask Albright,new USA ambassador to the UN Samantha Power even Barak Obama has given us his full support .If im understanding thinks right Haage is not in Bosnia nor is any judge a Bosniak,It is international court full of people from international community .So are saying that they hate bosnians but keep lucking up croats for war crimes,ethnic cleansing etc,Well you could be right but to be honest its working great for us,and not so great for croats,Im only afraid that Merkel and Germany may punish us because croats don’t want to extradite Perkovic plus 20.Other then that so far so good ,Thank you god.
Oh braco p you are so very wrong when you say that Croats don’t want to extradite Perkovic to Germany – Croats do want to extradite them but unfortunately it’s your communist mate Mesic and the pro-communist government that don’t want to hand him over because the charge against him if for “communist crimes”.
When I wrote ‘my friend Mesic”my friend was intended to therealamericro.but anyways Josipovic is a president of cro and Perkovic used to be an adviser to saint franjo ,later to Mesic,Josipovic.I guess im trying to say HDZ ,Karamarko wouldn’t extradite him either.Now according to Germany they are after 21 croats and couple of them are child -molesters and that new cro -law of non extradition applies to them too.I have realized that you and therealamericro blame Mesic for pretty much everything.Now if you are familiar with cro politics you would be able to understand that the law had no a chance without HDZ,So I thought one day you may start spreading the blame around because its way overdue.Croatia will have pro communist government for next 20 years I guarantee you that so start getting used to it,I mean do you really know who Karamarko is.If you don’t he is Mesic’s man.
Exactly braco p – it’s all about stopping this particular communist crime from being processed where it occurred: in Germany. I am well aware of mistakes Tudjman made regarding his advisers early on, i.e. in immediate transition from communist Yugoslavia – unfortunately there wasn’t much to choose from there… but today, or the last few years are a different kettle of fish … if Croatia will have pro-communist government for the next 20 years I’d better sharpen my pencils further …
Robert Keane, Haage is really world court so I don’t know why don’t you take it for what it is instead of bitching,World lover as you have to respect the court and its works so stop complaining about things you love so much ,don’t be flip -flapper or are you like rest of the croats when you find it bad,good ,bad and then again good ,again bad,What has happened to all that love you have for world,
Robert Keane ,World has founded a court in Haage,its even being financed by world .All in order to sort things out as you said,now just give it your full support since you beleive that things have started coming out,Or maybe you want it both ways to make sure that you have been right on the end.
For our Bosniak guests: http://www.scribd.com/doc/47080023/Charles-R-Shrader-Muslimansko-hrvatski-gradanski-rat-u-SB-1-1-dio; http://www.scribd.com/doc/47080167/Charles-R-Shrader-Muslimansko-hrvatski-gradanski-rat-u-SB-1-2-dio
Read up. Author is a Lt. Col. in the US Army, a doctor of military history who taught at both the US Army War College and West Point.
I see some have brought up the illegal HOS-created detention camps set up by ABiH Saint Bismillah, I mean Blaz Kraljevic, whose post-mortem cult-worship amongst Bosniaks is only superceded by their cult-worship of Tito (interesting choice of two ideologically polar opposite Dieties).
I think that Bosniaks should be a little more careful in regards to bringing up camps, considering that the UN report from July 27, 1994 included the following:
QUOTE: “The reports reviewed alleged a total of 677 camps within BiH. Among those camps, 333 (49.2 per cent) were alleged to have been controlled by Bosnian Serbs; 83 (12.2 per cent) by Bosnian Muslims; 51 (7.5 per cent), by Croats; 31 (4.6 per cent) by both Croats and Muslims; 5 (.7 per cent), by private parties; and 174 (25.7 per cent) by unidentified forces.” ENDQUOTE
Unidentified forces being the foreign Mujahideen Islamist terrorist pigs of course.
Even if we treat the Pigs’ camps as entirely separate and not under the control of the Mayor of half of Sarajevo, Alija Izetkmetovic, which they were as the Mujahideen were under the direct control of Hasan Cengic as well as the 7th, 4th, and 5th Corps as well as Alija’s intelligence apparatus, the Bosniaks controlled MORE camps than Croats.
Would bracop and Amir like to compare a) Number of deaths in Bosniak vis a vis Croat controlled camps b) Number of people processed in those camps?
Because there were at least 630 documented murdered and or slaughtered Croats in the concentration camps set up by the HArmija BiH, where over 14,441 Croats were illegally interned (only 4,000 of them were HVO members who surrendered, the rest were CIVILIANS).
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again to our Bosniak “brothers”: good luck on your own next war. You will not get a single piece of ammunition nor a single crumb of bread from Croatia. We begged you to organize along with us, but you insisted on marching around with Tito portraits and red star flags as snipers opened up on you in Sarajevo and as your women were raped in front of their families in Eastern Bosnia, and the men slaughtered afterwards. You stabbed us in the back because, instead of manning up and facing the Serbs with us, you thought you could slease a quick victory and take everything to Neum (BUHAHAHAHA).
If you would have listened to us, all of RS would be yours (save Croatian Posavina and Kotor Varos).
But you made your choice and betrayed those who saved you from physical extermination at the hands of the JNA and Cetnici, and instead you have Trokutistan surrounded on three sides by RS.
You will never be trusted again. Good luck. Enjoy your handouts from Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey that keep your heads barely above water.
What do you mean handouts by SA,Iran,and Turky,I mean it was cro diaspora who has send all that money ,remember.Or did you figure out that fellow croats know it has never happened so you had to stop lying.
Amir Pilipovic, you really are hopeless – no one said Croatian diaspora sent all the money – your comments are quite irritating, now you know why some of them are deleted
I m talking about con-camp Hitler style,nazi etc,but anyways Blaz Kraljevic was a croat ,was send by Croats and believe me or not was financed by Croats,And what the most amazing is the fact that HOS has cleanest hands in all of it,So members of Hos,right wingers of cro politics,diaspora should be proud of themselves ,on the other hand im not sure you can say it for yourself,Its nice to see you have finally recognized who has send all that money to,for Bosniaks,sounds like you have dropped the idea that it was cro diaspora,But anyways if you would go back to to the war time and compered countries that have helped cro the most you would realize it is middle eastern not western,Western countries have been very strong talkers but have never put there money where there mouths were,
But braco p the Croatian diaspora had put the money where their mouth is even though you yourself choose to ignore that
Dets not tru Amir, mister Blaz vaz for da Hrvatska do Drina end his forces krijeted sevrel kemps direktli AGAINST da ordrs af de HVO, in fekt, risentli membrs of HOS hev bin put an trajl for krajms agenst da Srbs in Heliodrom end da Dretelj end da Gabela.
Da rison vas bekaus Paraga end da Kraljevic ver KOS all along, dej ver der to sabvrt da Kroejtians fram vitin vit stjupid retorik end hejt speech. Divide end konker.
Vaj do ju tink Mesic and Manolic riched aut to Paraga efter those KOSovci vir purged in da 1994?
Dej – KOS end its operatives – failed. Luzers.
Aj lajk jor koment therealamericro 🙂
Braco P; Yea Bosnians are responsible for 9/11; only one thing I don’t get is Why would same Americans give
Bosnia Muslims where playing MAJOR ROLE for sheltering, hiding, assisting, providing logistics, training including giving PASSPORTS to Osama bin Laden, Mujahedeen, Talibani, al-Qaida…(all pigs), and no one should doubt, Izetbegovic and his close Muslim associates knew exactly what terrorist Osama bin Laden had in mind, and we know what happened on the end of the day, they killed thousands of innocent people in good friendly America. Izetbegovic and his friends must have been enjoying themselves to high haven
ROKO,Sure and yet its bosniak who are west-oriented ,Its Bosniaks who would like to join NATO ,EU etc,But you have to ask yourself why would high ranking USA diplomat give ultimatum to Cardinal Vinko Puljic,one being to show some love for Bosnia,other if you cant do that then you have to pick your things and leave Bosnia,Now he was offering this to cro people in Bosnia via Cardinal Puljic.USA has helped to Bosnia via many means and one of those is Arming Bosnia(Youtube)giving it among other things 200 tanks,Has helped financially in Billions,stil spands millions through USAID and Government,New USA ambassador to the UN Samantha Power is the best known ,described in USA as BOSNIAN CHILD,was in Sarajevo from 93-96,Now if you live in Australia and if you visit parliament building you will see a STECAK that was given to them by Bosniaks,Obama has given us his full support,There are 350000 bosniaks living in USA ,50000 in Canada and 40-50000 in Australia and according to you all of them have been taken in because they have fear of us,because they believe we are armed and danger for there people.Anyways I hope you are smart enough to realize that Europe is not capable nor willing to deal with cro or its people,So I would point to you good old,or bad old USA and tell you ITS THE PLACE THAT COUNTS THE MOST,So im said to disappoint you by saying We Bosniaks have great relationship with USA,they don’t seem to buying in your theories.
braco p; You know the saying keep your friends, but your enemy even closer and that’s the truth. Americans are not stupid they want to keep their enemies (Muslims) very close so there will be very little collateral damage (surprises) when you try to stub them in the back like you have done it with Croatia(n) people. Nothing is going to stop them and few millions $ for America it’s not worth mentioning, but for Bosnian Muslims its big dollar sign in their eyes (greed), and so on the end of the day Muslims will uplifted from Bosnia. Yes that is the larger picture, Europe & America doesn’t want Muslim state, and so you will be moved away by few more dollars and that will be the end of bosniabosnjakmuslims or whatever. Just wait you will be all over the world for good, because you are greedy people, selfish, ungrateful and you cannot be trusted, and therefore, you don’t deserve to have country of your own.
Roko – I’d add “bar exceptions” – not all Bosnian Muslims act or speak as braco p or Amir Pilipovic (commentators on these blogs) and I trust you meant to exclude those from your descriptions…
Roko,don’t you think its time for you to get out of your mom’s basement and get educated ,I mean dude you are trying so hard to debunk common sense and the truth,I would say it’s too late ,you went behind the returning point.But anwways let’s explore your point of view,America would never play a friend to Bosnia nor to Croatia,Roko we are just to small fish to them.Now after getting out of your Mom’s basement you will ,may realize that president of USA is Barak Hussein(pay attention to HUSSEIN)Obama,He is a democrat and was raised partially in Muslim country called Indonisia.You will of course find out that Bill Clinton and Bush ,Carter,Bush W have been presidents of USA and Used to dance with king of SA,But for the sake of argument let’s say you are right,Do you really think they will kill us all,You sound like Milosevic when he said to Holbrook ‘I don’t think you will bomb us becoause of couple muslims”Now on the other hand they don’t play a friend to Croatia but did screw you from Washington Agreement on,Did’t help Tuti,Rajic,Kordic,Blaskic,Cerkez ,Rajic nor to 6.According to Cardinal Vinko Puljic they have been very rude and mean to him at a meeting behind closed doors.NATO led by America has armed us for free with there weapons including 200 tanks all for free to give us a better chance in the future,but according to you they did so we can kill more of them.I always recommend Washington Agreement to Croats because its the easiest way for you to understand how you got screwed by USA.And on the end to be brutally honest you really don’t make any sense.
Sorry to disappoint you braco p, the fact that Barak Hussein Obama is a Muslim has nothing to do with his role of president of USA if it does then oh boy is he in for a rude shock (that goes for anyone who mixes religion with state governance)
braco p – at least Roko has a mother and a basement and you poor lost thing still call yourself braco=little brother, so your snot is still fresh – judging from your comments on this blog I think you need an education overhaul – and when you embark on that make sure you leave your jihadist ego outside somewhere. Enjoy your Muslim world just don’t come and pollute our world then we can all perhaps be neighbors, mind our own business. Obama is president of all Americans US where he was raised does not matter, what matters is how he does his job that has nothing to do with his upbringing country nor religion and if you say it has well we’d better get on with impeachment.
Ina ,Why do you think a jewish was never a president nor will ever be,Why Rommney had to explain his religion over and over again,Why a catholic or a muslim would have a problem with American people,Anyways if you want me to be specific Obama’s father is a muslim,and he partially grew up in muslim country Indonisia,Now I was just trying to make little sense ,to point a reality to Roko,to say that America may not be on a killing spree of muslim’s as Roko makes it sound.
braco p. I actually do not care what religion a president of USA or any country is – their job is to respect everyone’s religion
Roko I have very bad breaking news for you,MUSLIMS WILL DOMINATE EUROPE BY 2050.and worse news is this THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT,
braco p – your comment is simply awful. Having said that there once was the Ottoman spread, it lasted in some places, it was resisted in others and them it was no more.
Ina ,awful or not ,its just the truth,Muhamed is the most given name to newborns in many European countries,Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world,now if you find it awful its ok but it doesn’t mean its not the truth.
braco p – I couldn’t give a hoot about which religion is fastest developing – I have my religion and in my world it is the biggest religion… Islam can spread as much as it wants but on my patch I doubt it will succeed. Besides government in the civilised world are secular and should adhere to human rights without the need to refer to religion. I am not about to make this blog a vessel for your religious crap – do it elsewhere – you are welcome to Muhameds – it’s a free world still …
Of course not all the Muslims especially those from larger cities
The headline this morning
“US posts in Muslim world will remain closed”
“Tighter security at some US missions over al-Qaida threat”
“The Obama administration announced Friday that the posts would be closed over the weekend and the State Department announced a global travel alert, warning that al-Qaida or its allies might target either U.S. government or private American interests”
Yea, I wonder who they are monitoring in Bosnia these days,,,, who is Bosnia hiding today,,, maybe AL-QAIDA, MUJAHEDEENS??
Roko – most interesting question
Re. braco p. I may sound like I hate all the Muslim world, but I really don’t. Fact of the matter is that I have met many interesting, intelligent and beautiful Muslim characters from different parts of the world and never had any issues with them whatsoever. I went to school with some, worked with few and still remained good friends with them. However, Bosnian Muslims are totally and diametrically opposite of the rest of the Muslim world, that I know. Here is example, all the high commissioners in Bosnia where disappointed with Muslims there, including all UN-generals etc., and most of them found them greedy, lying, and not trustworthy. Closer to home, look what they did to Croatia and tremendous Croatian help in billions of dollars; America (giving PASSPORTS and hiding Osama bin Laden, Mujahedeen, Talibani, al-Qaida). So, when all is said and done I strongly believe Bosnian Muslim don’t have the future in modern Bosnia.
ROKO,a thing or two you don’t get is really easy to understand,the problem you have is the one when a person feels as a looser,Facts my friend don’t support any of your ideas ,theories,I mean you really do believe that Americans are so stupid,they have armed us too fool us,Gave us billions,took 150000k people in and gave us all USA has to offer,Now today many of us are doctors,lawyers.business owners etc and all Bosniaks,Since I live in USA I can tell you one thing “Its not a problem if you issue a passport to Bin Laden,the problem would be to refuse to cooperate when asked to void it”now im trying to tell you that Germany is not going to hold Croatia responsible because Perkovic killed or ordered killing of another croat living in Germany,But they will hold to responsible for not extraditing him.Let me see Germany will punish Bosniaks for Perkovic,and USA doesn’t care about croats ,Australia doesn’t want to extradite Kapetan Dragan,Plus all of them besides arming us have given billions,And all of it to fool us.
Just to prove how uninformed you are braco p and yet you claim to know everything. I live in Australia and have followed Captain Dragan extradition proceedings closely, even attended court hearing in public gallery. Australia has decided to extradfite Captain Dragan to Croatia, he is only using his rights under due process to appeal etc etc but that does not mean Australia won’t extradite him, Australian government has already decided to extradite him – just one link http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/govt-approves-captain-dragan-extradition/story-fn3dxiwe-1226518615662
INA I know they want,only I don’t know why it takes more than 10 years to do so,maybe they care less about Kapetan,Do you think as I do a dude will die of natural death before then Australia deports him.There is Serbian lobby in Australia and apparently they are doing way better job then you croats.I mean a guy is a war criminal not Snowden.Why don’t you use your power,lobby and get him on his way to Croatia .And its why I was trying to explain to Roko importance of Samantha Power,even Susan Right was great to us.I guarantee you if he was in USA he would be serving his 9th year by now.
braco p – what is happening is Captain Dragan using all possibilities he (and every Australian citizen) has under law to appeal court and gov decisions. That’s called due process and whether we like it or not we must allow it to occur. I don’t know what Serbian or any other lobby has to do with this, lobby does not interfere with court decisions etc – Serbian lobby can for instance send messages to media etc but really Croatian gov has made request for extradition and that is being processed – you simply do not seem to have an understanding of or acceptance of processes and suggest that Croat community could make things happen there. You suggest that if USA was dealing with extradition requests he’d already be serving jail – oh for crying out loud – you tell us there are no laws or due processes for this in USA – that is just stupidity that arises from your obvious hatred of Croats and has nothing to do with reality. I’m getting tired of your stupid irritating annoying ways
Ina I wish you said it to Roko because he is the one who sees things through religion prism.And I just felt a need to correct you both,
Harold Ulm.I don’t call my self Braco ,it’s my name .As I child I was’t fortunate to name my self nor to be related to Hitler, but if was fortunate enough like you did I wouldn’t name my self Harold.And when it comes to education ,smarts it’s always good for you to read all,or just couple of comments because you sound dazed and confused.And if you live in USA than you know that religion and upbringing have everything to do with a person running for presidency of the USA,specially if you live in south,So my friend it may be time for you to get out of your mom’s basement and figure it out.Besides Colombo you can’t even be a president of USA if you weren’t born in USA(there is a law that prohibits doing so)wich in return means that in fact a place of birth does matter,wich means that your knowledge is limited .Rommney didn’t talk about being a Mormon and polygamy because he wanted to but because he had to,it matters .But anyways upon living your mom’s basement you will learn a thing or two and you will most likely say OPSSSSS.
“Re-braco p- Ina I wish you said it to Roko because he is the one who sees things through religion prism.And I just felt a need to correct you both”,
Well I really couldn’t care less what religion is my neighbor or president of US, but Bosnian Muslims are different cattle of fish. What bothers me is, because you as a Bosnian Muslim and many others like you from Bosnia have been denying and insulting my people and country to no end. Calling us CRO in every sentence & it’s so transparent,,, why you don’t call us Catholics because we are Roman Catholics, and there is no denying you Bosnian Muslims hate us. It will be more honest of you to call us what we are, if you know what honesty means.
In spite of the fact that Croatia & Croatian people helped Bosnian Muslims in so many ways, you still have a problem just saying simply THANK YOU….if it was not for Croatia you would have been all dead today.
On the other hand-maybe you would prefer if I address you as a BOSNJAK? Well it isn’t going to happened because BOSNJACI where never in existence in Bosnia. There were always Orthodoxs, Roman Catholics, Muslims and few Jews. So, call me Catholic from now on.
Roko – I think what comes out from braco p and similar comments is that Bosnian Muslims who think like these commentators do think they know everything, think that others owe them a living and they owe nothing to anybody, hate Croats … think that Islam is a religion more valuable than any other … all in all garbage
Well Ina so far we know who supported war criminals,ethnic cleansing ,torture etc ,It was not me and you will figure out who did,I mean ICTY speaks 1000 words you have to love it.So i guess we do get where all the hate is coming from,after all some people have wasted there money,lost family members .legs and hands for nothing ,Nobody in the world even cares so they come here to consolidate each other,using among other things purified stupidity,and of course lies.All the sudden you don’t want to be croats anymore ,you want to be called catholics.
Well Roko you have just answered a million $ question,and the question was “how in hell are you a croat when you were born in Australia and you even don’t speak croatian’Now my problem with your ideas is simple as this.You find actually Bosniaks to be religious/muslim fanatics while rest of the world doesn’t.Rest of the world finds us to be drinking,sexy dressing muslims or the list religious .Now you should go to Bosnia and preach to Croats how they are not croats but catholics.And if I wanted to be called Bosnjak I would use nick as Bosnjak on this forum insteed of my real name,Now you are fed with lies but let me tell you that croats and muslims have fought each other .Regardless of who started the fight we have ended killing each other ,and now to thank each other or to have muslims to thank croats for killing them is beyond stupid(in normal world /democracy it call for apology),If you happened no to be a sore looser you would know that 25000 Bosniaks have fought in HV(most of any people ,minority by %)and 1100 of them gave there lives for Cro and your stupidity.So why don’t you thank me looser.on the other hand you catholics in BiH have fought for Croatia not Vatican.Now in history lesson ,If you research name Bosnjaci you will be able to see how little you know,and how uneducated you are,but what I do like about you is Call me a roman-catholic while same roman-catholics in BiH would find you a JUDA.
Ina USA has deported over a hundred serbs and couple Bosniaks.In Astralia a law is made by politicians or policy makers as they are called by many people and courts ,judges and police just enforce it,which means that you could use your lobby(if you have one)and pass a law named WAR CRIMINAL KAPETAN DRAGAN and deport him next month becouse judge is there to enforce it,We bosniaks have a group made of USA politicians ,both democrats and republicans,a group made of 120 of them ,the number fluctuates depending on elections,But anyways we call it FRIENDS OF BOSNIA and have successfully deported over a hundred serbs.Now on unrelated topic ,USA has a hundreds of immigration camps where they keep all illegal immigrants and they have immigration and customs department,immigration judge and court,what im trying to tell you is the fact that USA under Obama deports around 400000 people each year without due process you are talking about.
braco p – now I definitely know you know very little about Australian legislature – laws are not by politicians or policy makers as stand alone but parliament/senate … common law that applies to judges rulings etc do not apply to this type of legislation. Please give us the links as to how politicians and policy makers make new laws in Australia as you claim – perhaps I’ve missed something
Ina the people that works in Australian Parliament/Senate are called politicians or law makers and they write and vote on all new among others immigration laws and immigration laws in Australia are called uniformed ,which means they are all the same through out the country.Everything that a judge or police enforces is the law in the books,they are not enforcing common sence,Which means all from simple traffic ticket to a capital murder to a bank robbery is covered by a law.Now Kapetan had to come (as asylum seeker)or refugee which means that he had to fill out some paper work .And my guess is he didn’t say he was doing war crimes ,nor that he was in the army.nor that he is wanted by Croatia.Which means he most likely has lied on the app(which on its own is law breaking).And if it takes 10 plus years to extradite/deport a war criminal/criminal would tell me that there is a loop whole in the law or somebody is doing favor to somebody else.And its where cro lobby kicks in.Now you can say ,Well we croats don’t have lobby instead of having excuses for everything.I know when jeremic had his clown show in UN ,there was not a single croat,even homeland media reported how Bosniaks are complaining etc.Not to be rude but you do sound like you have no idea how lobby works.
You are wrong braco p – firstly all laws are not the same throughout Australia. There are federal/commonwealth laws (e.g. social security/pensions, welfare, taxes, immigration, customs etc of commonwealth jurisdiction) then there are State laws (some have a variation of federal like crimes act, etc and then there are specific state laws of state jurisdiction…).
Secondly Captain Dragan did not come to Australia as refugee/asylum seeker, he in fact came to Australia young in about 1967 and lived under the name of Daniel Snedden … then to my knowledge he went from Australia as “volunteer” to fight for Serbian cause/aggression in Croatia…and as for your insults that I have no idea how lobby works I can only briefly say that I was one of the rare people who lobbied among western government against Jeremic’s plan in UN April 2013 debate about international criminal justice… if you read newspapers from Croatia, Australia + this blog then you would have noticed that I contributed to the UN debate being boycotted by various countries… As to lobbying for other things let’s just say you do not know and you should not make offensive comments about people you do not know nor what they do or have done. You just make yourself visible as a fool, to say the least.
And here we go on national level “friendly muslims” and first neighbor with ugly propaganda coming to damage Croatia tourism. What can we expect next from such people?
http://www.portaloko.hr/rezultati_pretrage/3/0/cHJvcGFnYW5kYSBib3NhbnNraWggbWVkaWphIHByb3RpdiBIcnZhdHNrZSBpIG5qZXo=
Yes Roko – it seems there is no end to the jealousy from the neighbour for Croatia’s progression into EU etc – they’ll do anything to spread lies and try to affect Croatia’s tourism image. But hey, it looks as if the tourists know better as this season is more successful than the last.
It has happened on the fb page of European Parliament when they promoted Croatian tourism and where Slovenian dude has trashed Croatia and its people,But anyways the story has been reported properly by cro media and tv,after done by Avaz ,So you can drop your hate,lies and propaganda,I mean just visit index.HR.tportal.HR or just dnevnik on hrt.
braco p – exactly it was first done by Avaz
Jeli Bosna drugi Pakistan
http://www.portaloko.hr/clanak/nevjerica-na-ulicama-sarajeva-napao-djevojku-zbog-golih-nogu-za-ramazan/0/48567/
Translation Roko comment: is Bosnia another Pakistan. Link to newspaper article about a man (muslim) attacking a young girl on the street of Sarajevo for wearing shorts during Ramadan
Odgovor na to pitanje je veoma sladak,kratak I precizan a odgovor je NIJE.
translation of braco p comment: the reply to that question is very sweet, short and precise and the answer if It’s not
Zaboravila si objasnt zašto je Hrvatska vojska napadala Mostar i G.Vakuf, i kao ta da vojska jedne države uđe na teritorij druge međunarodno priznate države.
IVANO comment translated: You forgot to explain why did Croatian army attack Mostar and G. Vakuf, and that the army of one country enters into the territory of another internationally recognised country.
REPLY: No Ivano, I did not forget to explain – I believe the article covers the fact that Bosnian Croats were forced into organising their defence and sought help from Croatia. For details readers can seek out sources that speak of that. Thank you on your comment